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Author Topic: HELP what is this icon?  (Read 2467 times)

Offline Breazer

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HELP what is this icon?
« on: January 24, 2018, 10:59:54 PM »
Hello friends,

For an ongoing project I am in need of some help. Since English isn't my native language I am having some trouble with this.

In the following clip you see the horrible death of the son of Roger.  On this poor man's chest you can make out a sign/sigil. What is this icon called and could anyone link maybe some good examples of it. Perhaps someone even knows what type of people used this image as a sigil. I am happy with any help that could enlighten me.


« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 08:56:56 AM by Breazer »

Offline monkeylite

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 05:33:49 PM »
Not sure, could it be a rowan tree or a vine, or something like that?

Offline Arlequín

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 12:33:03 PM »
Maybe a variation of the 'sacre cour' motif? What looks like a vine and the top of a cross reminds me of something like this:

https://goo.gl/images/mx1ewQ

Although I'd expert the heart to be bigger and far more prominent.

It is a common Catholic symbol although I can see it being adopted as a personal one, or even as one for a specific group or order of knights.

I doubt its use in the movie is authentic, but people did display such things as a form of protective device.

Offline vodkafan

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 01:26:33 PM »
I looked up the Rowan tree in heraldry (and to my surprise came upon my own family name under Hurst Of Trees!)
The Rowan is also known as the Mountain-Ash and is not that common in heraldry as other trees. I think it's safe to say they made it up for the film.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Complete_Guide_to_Heraldry/Chapter_18

Link below to some heraldic art:

http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=File:Rono.jpg

http://heraldicart.org/rowan/

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heraldic_Sorbus_aucuparia.svg

Without the berries it seems to be just an Ash?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heraldic_Fraxinus_excelsior.svg


Many more on google images



« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 01:34:02 PM by vodkafan »
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Offline dadlamassu

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 02:13:29 PM »
I looked up trees and tridents in heraldry but could find nothing similar.  It may be a Hollywood invention or it may be something peculiar to the heraldry of a particular region or period.

I thought it may a religious award given the crosses at the tips and the embelishments which look like flowers. 
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Offline levied troop

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 03:10:12 PM »
There's two similar plant/tree examples in the European Armorial from the 15th C, the arms of the Godziemba clan in Poland and  the arms of de Dampierres (noted as killed at Agincourt) but neither incorporate the cross.
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Offline Arlequín

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 03:34:19 PM »
Edit: No, after seeing the video at better resolution, it's some kind of abstracted tree or bush, as these guys above suggest.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 03:44:30 PM by Arlequín »

Offline vodkafan

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 03:44:03 PM »
It certainly failed in protecting son of Roger  ;)

Offline Arlequín

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2018, 03:46:06 PM »
I wonder how much the rransom was worth though.  ::)

Offline Breazer

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 02:14:51 AM »
thank you all for the replies. I think it is indeed some kind of tree. I've rewatched the entire scene again and i think you can see him get knocked off a horse. There you can see the entire symbol better. I took some quick reference pictures with my phone. Thank you again.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 02:38:21 AM by Breazer »

Offline levied troop

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 08:43:42 AM »
Forget the Dampierre reference I made above, I managed to misread the line and the source shows the arms of the de Crequy family:
https://www.google.com/search?q=raoul+de+crequy&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&prmd=insv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEyIGIofrYAhWMXMAKHSOPBDAQ_AUIESgB&biw=1024&bih=666#imgrc=zFX7e4vYi0I2tM:

Wikipedia notes:
“Raoul de Créquy took the cross and was taken prisoner at the Battle of Mount Cadmus. His wife, Mahaut, believing her husband was dead, was going to marry the Sire of Renty, whom Raoul found in his domains on his return to France. His wife recognized him thanks to the bridal half-wedding ring that he wore, giving rise to the famous romantic poem of the Sire of Créquy,[11] in one hundred and seven quatrains. He died in 1181”

Maybe a simplified version of that?

Offline Patrice

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 09:41:31 PM »
He wears it embroidered on a shield shape on his chest so it's certainly meant to be his family heraldry. Perhaps related to the Créquy family, as mentioned above.

...distorted by Hollywood, because historically, in most cases heraldry was not displayed on a shield shape but on the whole tunic or tabard; but it's a common mistake.

Offline Wachaza

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 11:51:35 PM »
thank you all for the replies. I think it is indeed some kind of tree. I've rewatched the entire scene again and i think you can see him get knocked off a horse. There you can see the entire symbol better. I took some quick reference pictures with my phone. Thank you again.



Looking at that picture I don't see a tree I see a candle holder. Is the character Jewish? It's short a few branches for a Menorah but the de Créquy arms do have seven branches...

Offline dadlamassu

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 05:33:19 PM »
I showed this to friend and he thinks it may be of east European style





Offline Patrice

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Re: HELP what is this icon?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 08:22:51 PM »
I wouldn't jump to quick conclusions on such matters...

The tree on the Crequi family heraldry is called a créquier and is supposed to be a stylised drawing of a tree (perhaps a wild cherry tree).
It's true that scholars have been puzzled by its origin and meaning
http://www.blason-armoiries.org/heraldique/c/crequier.htm
some have also thought about a christianized menorah, etc.

Many western european old coat-of-arms originated in the Crusades so you also find crescents etc for whatever forgotten reasons.

 

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