1980’s British infantry section OBAT

[DeltaBlue]

I want to start a new project, new year and all
Thinking about a cold war gone hot plus zombies, cult TV, superheroes, etc etc basically anything that may interest my younger brothers.
Am I right in thinking that a generic British section OBAT would be as follows

Section
Fire team A
Section leader with sterling SMG
4x riflemen with SLR with LAW
Fire-team B
Deputy-Section leader with SLR
2x riflemen with SLR with LAW
1x Gunner with GPMG
1x Ass. Gunner with SLR

Anything I’ve missed

[carlos marighela]

That’s a fairly late 1980s organisation brought in prior to the transition to the SA-80. Prior to that the section was broken down into a three man gun group (including the section 2ic) and a five man rifle group, including the section commander. SMGs were as often as not substituted with SLRs in rifle sections.

You might find this series of videos helpful.

[commissarmoody]

Great video post

[Ash]

I remember watching that back in the 80's. Here's another:

[Ultravanillasmurf]

These threads keep reminding me to dig out my Retro-Ultramodern rules from that period (not seen since a house move twenty years ago).

[dadlamassu]

It depends which type of battalion you are depicting.  For 1983:

Mechanised Section (10 men): 1 x FV432, driver with SLR, Rifle Group - Corporal with SLR, 5 Riflemen all SLR, Gun Group Lance Corporal, Private with GPMG, No2 with SLR & spare ammo etc.  In the FV432 was 1 x 84mm Carl Gustav and several 66mm LAW

Type A & B Battalion and Para Section (10 men): Rifle Group- Corporal with SLR 6 riflemen with SLR, Gun Group Lance Corporal, Private with GPMG, No2 with SLR & spare ammo etc. NOTE:  LAW issued as rounds of ammunition.  Some battlions had an LMG instead of an SLR in either the Rifle Group or gun group.  Others split the section into two 5-man groups one with GPMG and one with LMG. 

Royal Marines Section (9 Men): Rifle Group- Corporal with SLR 5 riflemen with SLR, Gun Group Lance Corporal, Private with GPMG, No2 with SLR & spare ammo etc. NOTE:  LAW issued as rounds of ammunition.  Some had an LMG instead of an SLR in either the Rifle Group or gun group. 

In reality our sections were seldom at full strength!

[carlos marighela]

In reality our sections were seldom at full strength!

Indeed. When the Paras went to the Falklands, their sections were averaging less than eight men. Considering that they could draw on the rest of the regiment to make up the numbers..... Of course they made up for it by putting an extra GPMG in each section and they had access to Britain’s small stocks of M79 grenade launchers.

If you watch those training films you’ll see that the section in them is only seven men strong at the outset. Usually in such things, it’s all done by the book. Funnily enough I watched them in the 1989s as well. Being a Commonwealth army and one lacking in funds we used British Army training films. The principles of what we called ‘ fire and movement’ were the same although the section composition was different as the non gun group component could be split into scouts and rifles, the secco always moving with the scouts.  In the assault, as often as not the two would be combined, so it would be ‘SCOUTS AND RIFLES UP!’

[Arlequín]

The 'scouts and rifles' thing goes back to early in the Malaya Emergency, when a section patrol was divided into three groups of three; scout, lmg and rifle groups. Section strength was maintained by only having two patrols per platoon (one 'in' and one 'out'), with the third squad used to keep them up to strength and to provide security for the platoon camp.

It was essentially not so different to the 'pepper pot' of WW2, which also split the section into smaller teams, as opposed to the trad gun group and rifle group.

[carlos marighela]

The 'scouts and rifles' thing goes back to early in the Malaya Emergency, when a section patrol was divided into three groups of three; scout, lmg and rifle groups. Section strength was maintained by only having two patrols per platoon (one 'in' and one 'out'), with the third squad used to keep them up to strength and to provide security for the platoon camp.

It was essentially not so different to the 'pepper pot' of WW2, which also split the section into smaller teams, as opposed to the trad gun group and rifle group.

Nah. The split was done for tactical movement at least in the Orrstralian Army*. When assaulting the position the section would still pepperpot, typically in pairs. I still have memories of doing this again and again over rock strewn hills in 40C degree heat. The scouts preceded the secco in most formations and so he was grouped with them.

In a section attack, the section could move either as a combined rifle and scout group plus the gun group providing fire or as two separate groups but typically the last fifty metres would fought ‘on yer guts’ in pairs, pepper potting forward.

I believe you are right, this came about around the time of Malaya and we were still using it into the early 1990s at least.


* Or was said in the early 1960s. ‘Best little British Army there is, fucked up only by a few Australians’.

[carlos marighela]

By the by. Fighting patrols were often ‘half platoon’ strength. Usually two sections plus the Pltn Cmdr and a sig.

[Arlequín]

Yes indeedy, the section became too small on patrols against typical CT groups by the '50s, while the platoon was too big; so the third section was split between the other sections. I have it that the platoon leader led one, the P.Sgt the other.

Back in '58 or therebouts, the entire Commonwealth were all using essentially the same manuals and kit, the only divergence was that the UK didn't adopt the FN auto-rifle and went for the L4 'Bren' for that role. Things sort of diverged shortly after, with your blokes having Vietnam to work on and the Rhodesians with their own set of concerns.

Places like Zambia of course moved to the Soviet or Chinese way of doing things in the '60s.

Not quite applicable for the '80s outside of NI, but sections in Saracens could only be eight men strong. The later 'Stretched' Spartan could likewise only carry seven dismounts.

*Edit* - Changed 'L7' typo to 'L4'. 

[DeltaBlue]

thank you chaps for all the replies chaps food for thought,

dadlamassu- thank you for that I am trying to keep things very generic, I take it the LMG is the undated Bren? or the case of the paras and Marines section members armed with full-auto  Armalite rifles?

 Britain’s small stocks of M79 grenade launchers.

carlos marighela- I do remember reading about m79's

[dadlamassu]

The LMG is indeed the 7.62 L4 updated Bren.

The Paras and Marines generally carried the same L1A1 SLR as the rest of the army.  The Armalite AR-18 was sometimes issued to troops in hot operational zones back in 1960s and to the Gurkhas in particular (Borneo, Hong Kong etc).  However, its performance in operational conditions left much to be desired.  Later the M16 (once its faults were ironed out) was also favoured by SAS and SBS and was also issued on a limited scale in Northern Ireland and to troops in the Far East. 

So if you are staying generic for a temperate climate I would make a set of 13 figures which would allow for almost all combinations:
Corporal SLR
Lance Corporal SLR
Private SLR and M-79 40mm Grenade Launcher
Private SLR or SMG with 84mm Carl Gustav
Private GPMG
Private LMG
7 x Privates with SLR and some with 66mm LAW

[carlos marighela]

Yes indeedy, the section became too small on patrols against typical CT groups by the '50s, while the platoon was too big; so the third section was split between the other sections. I have it that the platoon leader led one, the P.Sgt the other.

Back in '58 or therebouts, the entire Commonwealth were all using essentially the same manuals and kit, the only divergence was that the UK didn't adopt the FN auto-rifle and went for the L4 'Bren' for that role. Things sort of diverged shortly after, with your blokes having Vietnam to work on and the Rhodesians with their own set of concerns.

Places like Zambia of course moved to the Soviet or Chinese way of doing things in the '60s.

Not quite applicable for the '80s outside of NI, but sections in Saracens could only be eight men strong. The later 'Stretched' Spartan could likewise only carry seven dismounts.

*Edit* - Changed 'L7' typo to 'L4'. 

Drifting off topic but.........

I think the Canadians were the only Commonwealth army to adopt the heavy barreled FN variant with any enthusiasm. We had them but they were mostly issued to non-arms corps, like Transport. They were typically a couple in most armouries in the 1980s. We used them for 'enemy party'. It was considered preferable to diggers jacking up their SLRs by placing matchsticks under the safety sear. I doubt one was ever fired in anger in Australian service.  They were a bit shit but fun to fire. For serious intent, we had the execrable  M60, until replaced in the mid-'80s to 90s.

With two section fighting patrols, the third section and the Plt Sgt would typically occupy the patrol base. Of course, a fighting patrol could be any size and in Vietnam they tended to be platoon strength due to the threat profile.

"The Armalite AR-18 was sometimes issued to troops in hot operational zones back in 1960s and to the Gurkhas in particular (Borneo, Hong Kong etc).  However, its performance in operational conditions left much to be desired"

AR-15 actually. The AR-18 was something favoured by PIRA. Because properly trained, Commonwealth, armies tend to actually clean their weapons, the early M-16 (pre-bolt assist) types proved less problematic than they did with our American cousins, who needed a fucking comic book to drive the lesson home. We still had Vietnam era M16A1s in the 1980s. they functioned well enough on the range although, with quite a few, the magazine could only be securely kept on the weapon by using a stout rubber band.

[dadlamassu]

AR-15 actually. The AR-18 was something favoured by PIRA.  

My memory may be slipping but I am fairly sure that it was the AR18 that Sterling produced for us under licence.  

Just checked various websites that agree that Sterling produced the AR18 and AR180.  Some units did use the M16 (AR15) later as I said.