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Author Topic: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain  (Read 2337 times)

Offline MachinaMandala

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2018, 11:04:37 AM »
It's probably one of the most horseshit theories in the historical domain ...

Can we disagree without being disagreeable? I already waxed skeptical of Dr. Gimbutas' peaceable Old Europe, there's no need to disabuse me. I will say that Civilization of the Goddess is the most comprehensive, thorough and current survey of the European neolithic, prior to the Indo-European migrations, that I've read. Although I'm an amateur non-academic, I was able to recognize and work around Dr. Gimbutas' several hobby horses. The first time I read COTG I wasn't able to retain much from the torrent of unfamiliar names and places that washed over me, but now that I come back to it after several years, I get the picture, and it gives me a context for reading about the Iceman, the Neolithic/Bronze Age transition in the Aegean, the appearance of Bell Beaker traits in western Europe and other specialized topics.

I honestly thought we were in agreement. lol

"It deserved praise for two great achievements: it established that the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans had left a huge trove of figurines, statues and painted ceramics, and it provided a feast of new images for historians of art and indeed for artists themselves. Yet Professor Gimbutas' interpretation of those images caused much scholarly concern. She accepted Peter Ucko's work to the extent of speaking of different goddesses and gods instead of one. But she completely ignored his other criteria by regarding a very large range of human representations, especially among the statuettes, as divine, and proceeding to classify them confidently with no justification other than her own taste. She explained the significance of geometrical symbols in the same fashion, and in subsequent works went on to complete her portrait of a goddess-worshiping, woman-centered, peaceful and creative Neolithic Balkan civilization, destroyed by savage patriarchal invaders. There is good archaeological evidence to cast doubt upon this, but Professor Gimbutas has refused to recognize it."
óRonald Hutton, The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles (Oxford, 1991) - pp. 37-42.

Here's some more info in case you're interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/01/the-scholars-and-the-goddess/305910/

Offline westwaller

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 01:12:00 PM »
Does Newline designs have anything suitable? Not the best website I'll grant you, but maybe worth a look?

Offline zippyfusenet

  • scientist
  • Posts: 258
Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 02:31:51 PM »
I honestly thought we were in agreement.

Shmaybe we mostly are. Ronald Hutton's critique that you quote seems fair. Again, I stress that I value Civilization of the Goddess as a general survey of European neolithic cultures, as they were understood c.1991, when COTG was published. I haven't read Dr. Gimbutas' other writings, though her developed ideas permeate COTG.

A critical reader can sift through Dr. Gimbutas' prejudices. As for Wicca, I don't see any need to talk about other peoples' religions on LAF.
You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

Offline El Grego

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 03:34:58 PM »
Equine matters aside, this sounds like a very interesting project    8)

Offline MachinaMandala

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 08:10:59 PM »
I honestly thought we were in agreement.

Shmaybe we mostly are. Ronald Hutton's critique that you quote seems fair. Again, I stress that I value Civilization of the Goddess as a general survey of European neolithic cultures, as they were understood c.1991, when COTG was published. I haven't read Dr. Gimbutas' other writings, though her developed ideas permeate COTG.

A critical reader can sift through Dr. Gimbutas' prejudices.

I don't think anyone should have to sift through someone's prejudices for a (supposedly) academic work. The facts should be presented as they are. That's my main problem with it.

As for Wicca, I don't see any need to talk about other peoples' religions on LAF.

The article's Wicca thing is mostly just a structure for the criticism of the "matriarchal" religion concept. If you go to "As Christianity spread, the classical deities ceased to be the objects of religious cults, but they continued their reign in Western literature and art." in the article, it's a good breakdown on where the idea came from and why it is mostly wrong.

Offline Lost Egg

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2018, 08:47:56 PM »
@NickNascati - Those are some nice minis, I was going to say I hadn't seen them before but then I spotted that Warlord sell them :D For me part of the fun of this project is sculpting my own.

@zippyfusenet - Here is that Cunliffe lecture...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8FM9nMFbfI&t=2s

@Westwaller - Thanks for the suggestion mate, some of the Witch cult minis are almost there. I really need to break out the sketch pad and get my ideas nailed down.

Again, thanks for all the interest. I am going to start building up some playtest minis tonight and sketch up some early BA weapons. As I said before my aim is to build some minis for playtesting and at the same time sketch up my ideas for how the minis should look, I've got a fair few notes and mood boards but we will see how it goes. Sadly updates are unlikely to very regular.

I will go into the game and the world at some point but if anyone has any questions then fire away.  8)

Offline Askellad

  • bookworm
  • Posts: 97
Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2018, 10:38:07 PM »
Nice ideas! I have worked on several bands of plastic minis for bronze age era but they are sleeping in the dust.
Waiting to see what you will build

Offline zippyfusenet

  • scientist
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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 12:46:22 AM »
Thanks for the link Egg, that was an interesting video. There seems to be another, I'll have to continue with the series.

Now I understand Dr. Cunliffe's theory that Celtic languages originated in the British Isles, possibly very early, and spread west-to-east from the Atlantic coast to Central Europe. If, as he suggests, Celtic language began as early as 4000 BC, then since the Celtic languages are Indo-European, that raises the question of how IE speakers got so far west so early.

Dr. Cunliffe posits that the first neolithic farmers came from Anatolia speaking Proto-Indo-European and spread that language family through the Mediterranean basin and across Europe with agriculture, starting around 6000 BC. Although Dr. Cunliffe calls this theory 'generally accepted', I understand that current theory has the neolithic Old European farmers speaking non-Indo-European languages, now mostly lost and unknown, while PIE originated on the steppes north of the Black Sea among the Yamnaya/Kurgan herders, and migrated west into Europe later, starting after about 3000 BC.

I'm sure Dr. Cunliffe could demolish me in an argument, so I'll just note the point and leave it. Celtic language could still have developed in the west and moved east somewhat later. Who knows at what time the mythic Invasions of Ireland happened, if ever? I'm impressed by Dr. Cunliffe's idea of maritime travel knitting together early cultural zones such as the Atlantic coast, the Baltic and the Eastern and Western Mediterranean. This idea is the theme of Europe Between The Oceans, I recommend the book.

Have fun developing your game, keep us posted.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 12:48:16 AM by zippyfusenet »

Online Munindk

  • scientist
  • Posts: 236
  • Denmark
Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 07:58:24 AM »
How about Perry Miniatures Mahdist bodies with GB Dark Age Warriors heads?
I've seen people use the this combination to make Irish and Welsh for Saga games.

Offline LeadAsbestos

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 02:44:17 PM »
Also, have you looked at Cutting Edge minis?  http://cuttingedgeminiatures.com/
Aimed more at the Middle East, but they do have Early Bronze Age figures, and modifying them may be easie than sculpting from scratch.

My favorite Bronze Age minis of all time! Small, realistic proportions, but gorgeous! I'm more of a "Collapse of the Late Bronze Age Aegean" man myself, but there should be something for you to use in this line.

And never mind all the pedantic comments! Just have some fun! If you're doing a thesis, argue. If you're playing with toy soldiers, do what you like!

Offline swiftnick

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 03:37:47 PM »
Watching with interest and good to see some bronze age love

Offline Lost Egg

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  • Posts: 256
Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 10:32:58 PM »
Thanks guys :D

Just a quick update, things have been a bit slow this week as we are between kids birthdays (both in Feb) and so have been busy sorting bits out in the evening. But, I have managed to convert some youths for the first warband and I've sketched out the first couple of weapon types.

In terms of discussing my idea for the game I was thinking of putting some fluff up to help nail the setting down for you all. But in the mean time...

Age of Bronze The Basics
AoB (Age of Bronze) is set in the early bronze age where warfare is ritualised and endemic, based around raiding. The game is a skirmish with around a dozen minis per side and you play through Tales, mini-campaigns that can be played through in an evening with each Tale representing a single raiding parties adventures...so a bit like a heist movie I guess...

@zippyfusenet - No probs :D I think Dr Cunliffe is proposing that Celtic grew as a kind of trade language along the Atlantic facade rather than just in the British Isles. With any pre-historic period there is so much we can only postulate about what happened, his theories certainly make sense in some ways.

@LeadAsbestos - Thanks man, I must admit my ideas have changed quite a bit over the few years I've been working on this and the flavour of the game has switched from full-on fantasy to full-on historic until its finally settled somewhere in between. In some ways I've been reluctant to settle on a particular time when I was researching as I was confronted by all these cool elements from history.

Offline Lost Egg

  • scientist
  • Posts: 256
Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2018, 10:24:13 PM »
The youths are done...ish. I just need to GS the join between the arm and the shoulder then sand the base and finally paint them.


For a first try I am fairly pleased with the warclubs, they are thicker than I'd like but considering I wasn't making them from scratch I'm still happy.


When I finally start sculpting my own minis I think I will start with some of these and use plasticard then shape and add GS as needed.

Now, some people may wonder why I've got warclubs...well in the early BA, bronze was a prestige item so most warriors, not to mention youths, wouldn't be able to afford a sword. Wood was widely available and makes a damn fine weapon even though there are very few examples found from the BA. Flint arrowheads were still widely in use so it seems logical to me that warriors would make good use of wooden warclubs. Inspiration-wise these beasties are based on an Irish hurley stick as I know the game of hurley is very old, and I have a sneaky suspicion that its dates to the BA as a form of ritualised warfare or a chance for warriors to prove how brave they are.

Next up I might have to build up some warriors...or maybe veterans...

Offline Sir Barnaby Hammond-Rye

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 06:38:28 PM »
Newline's Witchcult riding the wicker horses are superb! Great concept and great figures. Possibly not "historical" enough for you, however?  lol

Offline NickNascati

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Re: Lost Egg's Age of Bronze - Wargaming in Early Bronze Age Britain
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 07:06:04 PM »
 I don't know, the youth look okay, but something about the trousers and leg wrappings makes them look too modern.

 

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