Mon Idée Fixe de ARL et Panther

[Mr.Marx]

Hey All,

Just having a brainstorm on events that could have turned the Cold War hot at some point between 1948 and 1952.

I'm just dusting-off an old post-war French project that I bought everything for, but then never got around to actually making up or painting any of. Its a nice goofy armoured company centred on ex-German Panthers and the strange French ARL-44 dinosaur tanks, backed up with American WWII kit.

I have all my odd tanks, but just like them historically, I don't have a war to fight. I bought everything just because I like weird tanks and fancied modeling some.

I don't mind playing fast and loose with history, but having some history to hang things on would be nice, rather than just doing a generic 'the cold war just happened and the all the peoples started shooting at each other'. The Panthers and ARL-44s were both taken out of service in 1952-53, hence the limited time window in which to find something worth having a war over.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Marx.

[Brax182]

Well the Berlin Blockade comes to mind

Exerpt from Wilkipedia
The Berlin Blockade (24 June 1948 – 12 May 1949) was one of the first major international crises of the Cold War. During the multinational occupation of post–World War II Germany, the Soviet Union blocked the Western Allies' railway, road, and canal access to the sectors of Berlin under Western control. The Soviets offered to drop the blockade if the Western Allies withdrew the newly introduced Deutsche mark from West Berlin.

In response, the Western Allies organized the Berlin airlift (26 June 1948 – 30 September 1949) to carry supplies to the people of West Berlin, a difficult feat given the size of the city's population.[1][2] Aircrews from the United States Air Force, the British Royal Air Force, the French Air Force,[3] the Royal Canadian Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force, the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and the South African Air Force[4]:338 flew over 200,000 flights in one year, providing to the West Berliners up to 8,893 tons of necessities each day, such as fuel and food.[5] The Soviets did not disrupt the airlift for fear this might lead to open conflict.[6]

Tensions were high and if say the Soviets decided to shoot down The Berlin airlift planes for violating there airspace ..........

[Arlequín]

... or if Stalin (or someone else on the ground) lost it and actually occupied all of Berlin by force.

[carlos marighela]

A rather large shooting war broke out in Korea in 1950. At one point the dickhead in charge of the UN Forces sought nuclear release. Doesn’t require a lot of imagination to see where that might lead.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Well I have read that the French dispatched a Panther to Vietnam over concerns about IS-3 IS-2 deployment (possibly the New Vanguard IS-2 book). Will check.

[Edit: IS2 not 3, see below for reference]

[Arlequín]

There was an urban myth during the Vietnam War that U.S. troops frequently sighted a war relic Panther; it was probably a knocked-out M36 Jackson.

The apparent 'weakness' of the U.S. in Korea might prompt Iron Joe to try his arm certainly. Bear in mind there is no Bundeswehr and Red China is still allied to the Soviets at this time.

[Mr.Marx]

Well the Berlin Blockade comes to mind

Exerpt from Wilkipedia
The Berlin Blockade (24 June 1948 – 12 May 1949) was one of the first major international crises of the Cold War. During the multinational occupation of post–World War II Germany, the Soviet Union blocked the Western Allies' railway, road, and canal access to the sectors of Berlin under Western control. The Soviets offered to drop the blockade if the Western Allies withdrew the newly introduced Deutsche mark from West Berlin.

In response, the Western Allies organized the Berlin airlift (26 June 1948 – 30 September 1949) to carry supplies to the people of West Berlin, a difficult feat given the size of the city's population.[1][2] Aircrews from the United States Air Force, the British Royal Air Force, the French Air Force,[3] the Royal Canadian Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force, the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and the South African Air Force[4]:338 flew over 200,000 flights in one year, providing to the West Berliners up to 8,893 tons of necessities each day, such as fuel and food.[5] The Soviets did not disrupt the airlift for fear this might lead to open conflict.[6]

Tensions were high and if say the Soviets decided to shoot down The Berlin airlift planes for violating there airspace ..........

... or if Stalin (or someone else on the ground) lost it and actually occupied all of Berlin by force.

The Berlin Blockade - how'd I not think of that. Will have to do a bit more reading, but I'm sure there must be a viable casus belli caught up in things somewhere. Will have to see what the East Germans were using at that point. Hopefully some of it is more interesting than the usual Soviet bloc horde of T-34s and T-54s. Anyone know anything that'll tempt me?

A rather large shooting war broke out in Korea in 1950. At one point the dickhead in charge of the UN Forces sought nuclear release. Doesn’t require a lot of imagination to see where that might lead.

Well I have read that the French dispatched a Panther to Vietnam over concerns about IS-3 deployment (possibly the New Vanguard IS-2 book). Will check.

There was an urban myth during the Vietnam War that U.S. troops frequently sighted a war relic Panther; it was probably a knocked-out M36 Jackson.

The apparent 'weakness' of the U.S. in Korea might prompt Iron Joe to try his arm certainly. Bear in mind there is no Bundeswehr and Red China is still allied to the Soviets at this time.

From all my reading so far, I have been leaning towards something going down in the Far East - though a big part of that is that I'd rather model a jungle table to play on than have to do 'generic mid-C20th Europe' again, but in 10mm.

The French had some really cool kit knocking about in Indochina that I wouldn't mind getting to do - improvised armoured trucks, French Foreign Legion, &c. -  so that's quite appealing.

In regards to the Pink Panthers in the Jungle myth, I've always taken it with a big pinch of salt. As far as I know, no photographs or official documents have ever been found to substantiate the rumour.  I'm not even sure that the reports of mistaken wrecked M36 Jacksons holds up - so far as I know, all of the soldier's stories would place them in South Vietnam, while the French exclusively deployed their tank destroyers far north, close to the Chinese boarder.

It does make for a fun what if though. Historically, the Panthers and ARL-44s were decommissioned starting in 1952 when M-47s became available. The French certainly have form for sending off obsolete kit to colonial stations. If the Cold War was to really heat up over Red Chinese involvement in Indochina and Korea, it would be borderline plausible that, needing to prioritize their American-sourced kit to the European theater, the French could dispatch their obsolete heavy armour Eastwards. Given the trouble they had keeping the their old tanks running during peacetime in Europe, I can't imagine they'd last very long in the jungle - but that could make for a fun special rule - and at the very worse, they'd work as semi-mobile anti-tank emplacements.

And the Viet Minh, they'd just be fun to do wouldn't they.

Sorry for the braindump, but I quite like the sound of that now I've typed it out.

What do you think? Plausible enough for a wargame?

Marx.

[Arlequín]

While it was/is common to relegate obsolete or near obsolete items to peripheral strategic areas or reserve forces, it makes no sense to send something that you cannot support in terms of spares and ammunition to any extent.

The Panthers were rendered obsolete by the fact that their numbers dwindled to virtual nothingness as non-runners were cannibalised to keep the rest going. AFAIK only one unit, the 501e RCC had Panthers (50), which the 503e RCC took over when it was re-formed in 1951. The ARL-44 replaced 17 Panthers in that unit at that time. These units were manned by metropolitan conscripts, who were exempt being compelled to serve outside of 'France' (essentially France itself and North Africa).

Oddly there is a photo that exists of a late model Sdkfz 251 in use by French tirailleurs (either tunisienne, marocain or algerien), alongside a Universal Carrier, in Indochina.

In regards to the Pink Panthers in the Jungle myth, I've always taken it with a big pinch of salt. As far as I know, no photographs or official documents have ever been found to substantiate the rumour.  I'm not even sure that the reports of mistaken wrecked M36 Jacksons holds up - so far as I know, all of the soldier's stories would place them in South Vietnam, while the French exclusively deployed their tank destroyers far north, close to the Chinese boarder.

After the peace treaty the French forces withdrew below the 17th Parallel and into the limbo that was the withdrawal period of 1954-56. The M36 was consigned to an infantry support role after the 'Chinese Threat' failed to materialise, so penny-packets of these might be deployed all over the place. Possibly one or more were subsequently destroyed en-situ for some reason during that time, who knows?

It's slightly more believable than a Panther all the same, especially as the French rejected the Panther as being the foil to defeat the JSII, which was why they sent the M36 instead in the first place. The RBCEO, which fielded the M36, added roof plates to them, which would further add to any potential confusion.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Panther in Vietnam.
 page 38; New Vanguard 7: IS-2 Heavy Tank 1943-73; Zaloga, SJ; Osprey
"In the end the tank broke down and the French dispatched American M36 90mm tank destroyers instead".

YMMV

Not sure if it is mentioned in the Panther book as well (if that book is also written by Zaloga I would only count it as one reference).

Oh and it was Chinese IS-2s not IS-3s.

So available in plastic.

[Arlequín]

Indeed, barring Egypt, I'm not aware of any IS-III exports except for trial/evaluation in the front line WARPAC states. The IS-II was the export heavy tank. It still put the wind up opponents as late as 1962 though, when the U.S. deployed M103s to Gitmo during the Missile Crisis, for fear their M48s would be at a disadvantage.

[Mr.Marx]

While it was/is common to relegate obsolete or near obsolete items to peripheral strategic areas or reserve forces, it makes no sense to send something that you cannot support in terms of spares and ammunition to any extent.

The Panthers were rendered obsolete by the fact that their numbers dwindled to virtual nothingness as non-runners were cannibalised to keep the rest going. AFAIK only one unit, the 501e RCC had Panthers (50), which the 503e RCC took over when it was re-formed in 1951. The ARL-44 replaced 17 Panthers in that unit at that time. These units were manned by metropolitan conscripts, who were exempt being compelled to serve outside of 'France' (essentially France itself and North Africa).

Oddly there is a photo that exists of a late model Sdkfz 251 in use by French tirailleurs (either tunisienne, marocain or algerien), alongside a Universal Carrier, in Indochina.

After the peace treaty the French forces withdrew below the 17th Parallel and into the limbo that was the withdrawal period of 1954-56. The M36 was consigned to an infantry support role after the 'Chinese Threat' failed to materialise, so penny-packets of these might be deployed all over the place. Possibly one or more were subsequently destroyed en-situ for some reason during that time, who knows?

It's slightly more believable than a Panther all the same, especially as the French rejected the Panther as being the foil to defeat the JSII, which was why they sent the M36 instead in the first place. The RBCEO, which fielded the M36, added roof plates to them, which would further add to any potential confusion.

I can't flaw your reasoning; but then the French continued to dispatch ex-captured-German R-35/39s to Indochina all the way up to 1948 (if I remember right). I assume they were sent out due to their complete obsolescence in the European theater, and I don't have any figures on it, but I can't imagine that they had all that much in the way of spares for them left over.

But then, if the Panthers are too much of a stretch of common sense, what about the ARLs? While flawed, they'd only had a very short survive life and, just being out of production, spares would be trivial to produce and supply.

Did not know about the crews being metro' conscripts. I had just assumed they were professionals on account of them being on the heavy tanks. Interesting thing to know.

And I suppose someone could have seen a M35 below the 17th Parallel. Could have broken down and been abandoned. The Jackson does look a fair bit like a Panther if you look at it from the front. Can't explain why it'd be pastel pink thirty years later though - aggressive jungle-rust?

Panther in Vietnam.
 page 38; New Vanguard 7: IS-2 Heavy Tank 1943-73; Zaloga, SJ; Osprey
"In the end the tank broke down and the French dispatched American M36 90mm tank destroyers instead".

YMMV

Not sure if it is mentioned in the Panther book as well (if that book is also written by Zaloga I would only count it as one reference).

Oh and it was Chinese IS-2s not IS-3s.

So available in plastic.

Indeed, barring Egypt, I'm not aware of any IS-III exports except for trial/evaluation in the front line WARPAC states. The IS-II was the export heavy tank. It still put the wind up opponents as late as 1962 though, when the U.S. deployed M103s to Gitmo during the Missile Crisis, for fear their M48s would be at a disadvantage.

A 122mm gun is pretty scary whenever you're up against it. One'd still cause you a mischief nowadays if you're not careful about it.

[Arlequín]

Did not know about the crews being metro' conscripts. I had just assumed they were professionals on account of them being on the heavy tanks. Interesting thing to know.

Generally most armies maintained by National Service/Conscription work the same way. The guys that make a career of it usually rise into the senior NCO ranks (platoon Sgt and upwards), although some always remain in the lower ranks regardless (think Sgt Bilko, Corporal Doberman et al). What they don't do is keep segregated units of regulars; where will their replacements come from if there are no former conscripts in the reserve that served on Panthers or ARL-44 for example?

Right back to the 19th Century and especially after WWI, sending conscripts to war was an issue certain to cause social and political unrest in France. So much so that they passed a law against it. The French resorted to using the French Foreign Legion and the various tirailleur units etc., who were manned wholly by career soldiers, enlisted volunteers, tribal auxiliaries and of course the 'dregs of Europe'. Unsurprisingly the general public were not too vocal about these being deployed to hot spots in the colonies.

Metropolitan troops did serve in Indochina, but consisted of volunteers for that service, who were formed into composite units 'du marche', or in the case of armour, the Régiment blindé colonial d'Extrême-Orient (RBCEO). Conscripts were deployed to Algeria, which was legally part of 'France'.   

[carlos marighela]

Apro pos of not much... I did see the remnants of a C15TA at the Cu Chi Tunnels. I regret not havinf taken a photo. I believe the French passed a few on to the South Vietnamese. Most interesting vehicle I saw in any of the various war museums I visited over there.

By the by and back on topic, I don’t know whether the ‘atomic’ bit of your title is important but the Chinese, who would be the local proxies in any global scenario were wholly lacking in atomic weapons circa 1950.

[Arlequín]

The Soviet nuclear arsenal stood at 5 (RDS-1 22kt) in 1950, growing to 200 (after 1953 mostly RDS-6 400kt) by 1955. In comparison that of the U.S.A. was 299/2,422 (later types in multi-megaton range) respectively.

An atomic war would be pretty one-sided.

[Mr.Marx]

Generally most armies maintained by National Service/Conscription work the same way. The guys that make a career of it usually rise into the senior NCO ranks (platoon Sgt and upwards), although some always remain in the lower ranks regardless (think Sgt Bilko, Corporal Doberman et al). What they don't do is keep segregated units of regulars; where will their replacements come from if there are no former conscripts in the reserve that served on Panthers or ARL-44 for example?

Right back to the 19th Century and especially after WWI, sending conscripts to war was an issue certain to cause social and political unrest in France. So much so that they passed a law against it. The French resorted to using the French Foreign Legion and the various tirailleur units etc., who were manned wholly by career soldiers, enlisted volunteers, tribal auxiliaries and of course the 'dregs of Europe'. Unsurprisingly the general public were not too vocal about these being deployed to hot spots in the colonies.

Metropolitan troops did serve in Indochina, but consisted of volunteers for that service, who were formed into composite units 'du marche', or in the case of armour, the Régiment blindé colonial d'Extrême-Orient (RBCEO). Conscripts were deployed to Algeria, which was legally part of 'France'.   

Interesting stuff. Any idea how it applied to the occupation of Germany, post war? Presumably that was close enough to home?

Apro pos of not much... I did see the remnants of a C15TA at the Cu Chi Tunnels. I regret not havinf taken a photo. I believe the French passed a few on to the South Vietnamese. Most interesting vehicle I saw in any of the various war museums I visited over there.

By the by and back on topic, I don’t know whether the ‘atomic’ bit of your title is important but the Chinese, who would be the local proxies in any global scenario were wholly lacking in atomic weapons circa 1950.

Ha! I do love an C15. Had not cottoned on to the South Vietnamese using them.  Will have to add them to the line-up.

The Soviet nuclear arsenal stood at 5 (RDS-1 22kt) in 1950, growing to 200 (after 1953 mostly RDS-6 400kt) by 1955. In comparison that of the U.S.A. was 299/2,422 (later types in multi-megaton range) respectively.

An atomic war would be pretty one-sided.

And yes. You're both quite right about the lack of atoms in this thread. It's about obscure French tanks, not atoms. I should really rename it...