What mass battle games do people play, and why?

[Argonor]

Well. I don't know what you've read, but:

GoB has struck a nerve in me that umpty editions of Warhammer never did. I now have several fantasy armies, I never bothered to get a full army up and running before.

Play is fairly fast-paced with alternate unit activation, which keeps both players on their toes and engaged (combat/shooting is part of a unit's activation, so no 'phases' - when a turn is finished, both players have had the chance to use their whole army).

No book-keeping, we use a roster with the unit profiles and special rules , keeping the rulebook ready for situations that call for an interpretation.

Combat and shooting is pretty straight forward, active unit roll a number of dice to hit, based on unit strength and formation, defender rolls a number of dice to save based on unit strength, formation, and facing (for 'formed' units), then the former defender gets to retaliate. The unit suffering the most casualties must take a courage test, and possibly lose further models (running away), before being pushed back (if 'loose' - 'formed' units cannot be pushed back, which I have been pondering to change somewhat, as it would make it easier to play 'take and hold' scenarios, and such).

No powerful characters, characters must be part of a unit, heroes buff the fighting ability of a unit (but CAN issue challenges to other characters), priests (max one per army) can invoke Miracles (magic) - Miracles, mostly buffs or nerfs, are not extremely powerful (but employed cunningly can make the difference between victory and defeat), can be countered/nullified whether or not the opponent has a priest (but chances are better with than without).

At first glance, the army lists seem very restrictive (only 10 or so races, units are fixed), but with a little imagination it is very easy to use the army lists for proxy armies.
For instance, I bought a second hand lizardman army and use it with the Blood Gorged (classic beastmen) list. Fits like a glove! A Slann priest palanquin I use as chariot with the army's shaman/priest, a Stegadon as another chariot. I have also been building a Viking army which I intend to use with the Blood Gorged list, when I have enough models for it.
I intend to make a Thousand Tribes army out of LotR Rohan models, and I have a small Gondor army for which I use the Mercenaries (Empire/Landsknechts) list.
Only my Lords of Undeath army (http://argonor-wargames.blogspot.dk/search/label/Undead) is 'purist'.

We rarely have to look up rules, as everything is pretty standardized (not a ton of special rules to memorize).

All this from the top of my head, even though it's been a while since my last game (real life circumstances have been unkind to my hobby-life the last year).

[Raedwald]

I recently dusted-off and re-read a copy of Fantasy Warlord (by Gary Chalk and Ian Bailey) that I bought as a youngster in the early '90s.

At the time I was more interested in looking at the photos of miniatures, being pre-internet days. However, going over the rules they actually hit a lot of the right notes for me:

- Simultaneous movement and attacks.
- Order tests, with units less likely to follow orders as the battle develops.
- Limited impact from characters and magic.
- Realistic military simulation, in terms of movement, formations, morale, and combat resolution, etc.

I've not had a chance to try them out on the table yet, but I'm definitely interested in giving them a go.

[Timbo Slice]

Hi Raedwald,
Haven't played Fantasy Warlord in years but as I recall combat got pretty predictable. The odds did not change that much turn to turn so you could pretty much anticipate when the melee would end. This could be fixed by using d10s and making a conversion. It would add some uncertainty about combat results.
 
Command friction is cool with the reaction charts for each race. Sometimes you have units pulled along in advances or if they are out of command. The system also does an admirable job of simulating reduced command as leaders get involved in melees too.

This is also a system that has a bit more bookkeeping, especially for characters and big monsters but definitely do-able with a few little home brew mods. 

[The Red Graf]

LOL, You guys are killing my wallet. Thanks for the suggestions. 

[blacksoilbill]

I'm currently tinkering with a mash-up of To the Strongest and Command & Colors: Ancients. I'm using the movement and activation rules from TtS, along with the combat from CCA. Then at some point I'll have to figure out how magic will fit in (Warmaster, BattleLore?)

[Raedwald]

@Timbo Slice - Thanks for the feedback, I was hoping someone with experience of the rules might comment.

That combat predictability was a point that concerned me. I wondered whether it was part of the realism that the system seems to go for - i.e. Unarmoured troops fighting those in chainmail really would suffer, regardless of how lucky they might get. I thought it might put more emphasis on the need to manoeuvre carefully and try to get in with flank charges etc.

This level of realism might cause problems in a Fantasy game, where players are constrained with the large variation in races' arms and armour - like ragged Goblins with clubs vs. armour clad spear-Elves for example. I don't know to what extent the game's point system balances such issues. Will have to get round to trying it out myself. Cheers.

[modiphius]

There is also Mortem Et Gloriam...

I second this - great set using custom dice, and coloured command cards - very simple and elegant

http://www.thewargameszone.org/62/The-Ancients-Zone

[modiphius]

We're also going to try Saga replacing a miniature with a similar size base of 3-4 10mm figs. I actually think it could scale easily - there's a great article in Miniature Wargames I think where someone created a crusader army using 10mm scale. Watch this space on that I just picked up the 2nd edition to try it with my warmaster army

[Argonor]

We're also going to try Saga replacing a miniature with a similar size base of 3-4 10mm figs. I actually think it could scale easily - there's a great article in Miniature Wargames I think where someone created a crusader army using 10mm scale. Watch this space on that I just picked up the 2nd edition to try it with my warmaster army

Of course - a base then equals a model. You could use century or cohort sized bases, for all that matter.s The larger the bases, the bloodier the battle, though. 

[nic-e]

Of course - a base then equals a model. You could use century or cohort sized bases, for all that matter.s The larger the bases, the bloodier the battle, though. 

Indeed, This has always struck me about the division between Mass battle and skirmish.
I can play SoBaH with each unit representing a regiment, Or i can play warhammer fantasy with each unit being played by a single model.
It's not even like the detail levels scale as you get bigger, as we often think of big battle games having more rules, where instinct says that smaller scale systems would have more rules to focus on the individual actions of each character.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I think what you are saying is true to some degree and I have thought about doing Dragon Rampant with a base per strength point rather than a figure.  However, for most rules some mechanics must change to reflect the increase in scale.  In a skirmish a wizard or hero might be a very dominant feature.  In a mass battle a lone wizard becomes less important.  If you are gaming a world where magic is very powerful or you can have units or wizards this might not matter, but if you were gaming in a world like Middle Earth it would matter.
Then there are things like movement rates and missile ranges to take into account.

For me it would be a matter of how to keep the fantasy elements in the rules without the game becoming ancients or Dark Ages with orcs and goblins; I suspect Middle Earth mass battles could easily end up just a medieval bash. 

We might have to wait patiently for Modiphius to write his rules!

[The Red Graf]

There will be a new set of mass battle rules for Northstar's Oathmark won't there?

[fred]

We're also going to try Saga replacing a miniature with a similar size base of 3-4 10mm figs. I actually think it could scale easily - there's a great article in Miniature Wargames I think where someone created a crusader army using 10mm scale. Watch this space on that I just picked up the 2nd edition to try it with my warmaster army

That army looks really great - there are photos of it on the Pendraken forum as well. While I think it changes the look of the game quite a bit, you are only going from a few  8 man units to a few 25-35 man unis. This is hardly mass battle territory.

I.  However, for most rules some mechanics must change to reflect the increase in scale.  In a skirmish a wizard or hero might be a very dominant feature.  In a mass battle a lone wizard becomes less important.  If you are gaming a world where magic is very powerful or you can have units or wizards this might not matter, but if you were gaming in a world like Middle Earth it would matter.
Then there are things like movement rates and missile ranges to take into account.

I think this is very true. How individuals move and react is very different to how large groups move and react- so it is important that rules  are designed for a certain scale of game, and the players need to understand this scale too.

This isn’t to say that rules can’t work if the representative scale is flexed a little, as the Saga example above,  but few will work if written for 1 figure represents 1man, and you choose to replace that man with a battalion.

[Timbo Slice]

Here are a couple of pictures from a recent Overlord's Tower game. Ii love the look and feel of miniatures (as opposed to cardboard counters) so I hope these shots will give you a sense of what the game looks like.
The set is OOP but still fun.
Board is 2' x 2' , units are standard DBX basing with characters on 20mm squares.


The game took just about an hour to complete and was a nail biter until the end. The orcs had no magic user and suffered greatly by not being able to dispell. They also rolled a couple of 1s in some critical combats to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...
When you calculate melee combat you roll 1d10 + attackers value - defence +/- modifications and get the number of hits. Natural 10s always inflict a hit and natural 1s always miss.

Command friction was evident as the orcs rolled poorly and could not move all of their units. Your general has to spend a command pip to activate sub commanders and the orcs did not get enough pips to react to the elf knight end around.


 Last thing is characters a better used a leaders and to perform heroic actions. In this battle the orc battle lord made a leadership roll to save his warband from annihilation when the elf wizard dropped a flame strike and incinerated the unit. Once the roll was made the units stuck around with 1 hit left. Presumably, the battle lord pushed guys out of the way or warned them when the fireball was incoming.
 

[RapierMiniatures]

To the Strongest, is a great game that ticks most of your boxes easily, just needs magic and monsters adding.