Is Wargaming Getting Too Easy?

[Captain Blood]

Instead of blaming the readers here for reacting negatively maybe you should also spend some time speaking to Joe for purposefully trying to bait people in the first place?

It's not up to me what people say on their blogs. It is up to the LAF moderator team to keep this forum the civil and friendly environment it's always been.
I'm not blaming anyone for reacting negatively. Disagreeing with other people's views is entirely valid. But it should be possible to have a difference of opinion without getting snippy about it.

[stone-cold-lead]

For our hobby to grow and prosper, we need to make it easy for new people to start.

To support my new book about painting WW2 Germans, I started a Facebook Group. This now has 874 members.

Facebook gives you a lot of statistics about the Age, Location and Gender of the group members. The average age of my Facebook group is about 50. 70% are from English speaking countries and 99% are men.

Only 15% are under 35. I suspect that the younger ones are focussed on Games Workshop rather historical wargames. I think it is very important to get younger people to join our hobby. Therefore easy access is essential and desirable.

I suspect your book is exactly the kind of thing that will make the hobby easier for some people and I wish there had been something like that, a one stop resource back when I was first trying to figure out how to paint my WW2 Germans in the mid 90's. It was prior to the internet and the average bookshop didn't have much if any specialist military history books so it was case of blindly ordering books from catalogues in the hope they'd contain the information I needed. Occasionally I'd strike gold but many times I ended up buying something that just didn't give me what I needed. Yeah, I read a fair bit and acquired a bit more knowledge because of it but my figures still sat far longer unpainted than I really wanted. It didn't really help with my gaming hobby.

I think historics have a bit of an old fashioned, fuddy duddy image still that likely puts off younger gamers as well as the other excluding factors but some companies have done a lot in recent years to try and make it more accessible and more appealing. Of course that also comes with criticisms from 'proper' wargamers of dumbing down or 40K'ing of historics but I think it's more of a good thing than not.

[mcfonz]

Historics will always be a battle of sorts. I was about to launch into an ACW project when the fascists in America brought that all into furor again. After that I couldn't stomache it.

I also stay clear of modern/ultra modern for similar reasons. I find it a bit disrespectufl to be gaming stuff in a theatre of war people are still fighting and dying in, including civilians.

I tend to like my hisorical periods mixed with fantastical elements. I play Saga for the sagas and myths of the dark ages. Same with ancients. When I play WW2 it's with a weird war alternate universe with a mash up of Marvel's hydra for example.

[Arlequín]

I think historics have a bit of an old fashioned, fuddy duddy image still that likely puts off younger gamers as well as the other excluding factors but some companies have done a lot in recent years to try and make it more accessible and more appealing. Of course that also comes with criticisms from 'proper' wargamers of dumbing down or 40K'ing of historics but I think it's more of a good thing than not.

I think that you're heading more into "Is wargaming being dumbed down?" territory here. Sure, not everyone wants to spend weeks and months researching their 'army', or tactics, or anything like that, but we are seeing a divergence between 'real' history and 'pseudo' history, as peddled by some of the big fish in our small pool.

I like the 'new' simplified/abstracted rule sets, especially if there is an 'art' to be developed as you learn 'the game'. I don't like the numerous "line 'em up and may the biggest dice pool win", or the "a rule for everything" sets, that largely prevent any form of tactics being of use, unless concentrated fire and taking cover are the be-all and end-all of a wargame.

[stone-cold-lead]

I think that you're heading more into "Is wargaming being dumbed down?" territory here. Sure, not everyone wants to spend weeks and months researching their 'army', or tactics, or anything like that, but we are seeing a divergence between 'real' history and 'pseudo' history, as peddled by some of the big fish in our small pool.

I like the 'new' simplified/abstracted rule sets, especially if there is an 'art' to be developed as you learn 'the game'. I don't like the numerous "line 'em up and may the biggest dice pool win", or the "a rule for everything" sets, that largely prevent any form of tactics being of use, unless concentrated fire and taking cover are the be-all and end-all of a wargame.

I'd still say it's a good thing if it engages historics with younger gamers or newcomers. For some of them it might develop into a wider interest in the period and maybe they try other rule sets and wot-not. It's a starting point for that broad genre of gaming. And even if people do stick with the Warhammer World War K flavour of games then at least they're hopefully having fun with it. I suppose it depends what you want out of a rule set and the type of gaming experience you're after. It seems there's everything on offer from fast and loose heroic combat to pretty much mil sim games. Also what type of game might be desired. If people want to recreate a specific battle that can be a lot of work and involve a lot of preparation, others might just want to throw down their Afrika Korps on a Thursday evening for a couple of quick games. It's all good but there's still that hint of 'you're not doing it properly'.

[Dr. Zombie]

Was wargaming or indeed any hobby ever supposed to be hard?

[Plynkes]

I'm getting to a point where I value fun and the creation of an exciting tale of adventure (this is Lead Adventure, right?) much, much more than historical accuracy. I'm not here in pursuit of academic laurels, I'm here to have fun. It's my hobby, not my job.


I have been accused of being a button-counter in the past, and I confess that tendency does lurk within me. However, when talking about rules, I happen to like a certain level of accuracy, but not at the expense of fun. In my colonial gaming I am increasingly leaning towards wanting to recreate the atmosphere of the tales of Rider Haggard rather than a blow-by-blow, scientifically-designed re-enactment of the relief of Ladysmith. But if you want to do that then bloody good on you, and I'll cheer you on when you post pictures of it here on LAF.


I really think there is room for everybody, and there's no need to think in terms of the hobby being "too" this or "too" that. It is whatever it is to you, you don't need to be worrying about what other people are up to.

[FierceKitty]

I am myself delighted that I can usually find (and afford) figures for anything I want to do these days, that information is so much more up-to-date if one applies a little "old wine in new bottles" caution, and that terrain standards are so much higher in so many ways. I write my own rules, with much input from friends, and have always preferred it that way.

From where I'm standing, the hobby's never been doing better.

[Arlequín]

It's all good but there's still that hint of 'you're not doing it properly'.

I think there always will be, sad though it is for one person to deride someone else's enjoyment of their hobby. For me though the point is, whether you're a fastidious button counter (like I chose to be in relation to my own gaming), or indeed just want to throw down what you have in the box and play, we often use the same toys. The sum of people playing on both sides of the fence provide the impetus for manufacturers to release product for the benefit of all of us.

I'm certainly not going to sneer at those 'doing it wrong' for being instrumental in providing me with more toys to choose from. 

I'm getting to a point where I value fun and the creation of an exciting tale of adventure (this is Lead Adventure, right?) much, much more than historical accuracy. I'm not here in pursuit of academic laurels, I'm here to have fun. It's my hobby, not my job.

I really think there is room for everybody, and there's no need to think in terms of the hobby being "too" this or "too" that. It is whatever it is to you, you don't need to be worrying about what other people are up to.

I confess I've shifted into the hobby of 'button-counting' more so than gaming in recent years, there's something quite fascinating in researching the whats, whys and hows. I've tried to avoid just churning out info in the archetypal 'know it all' fashion, but instead I try to limit myself to offering solid info only when it's requested. The process of research is the fun part for me, but the habit of some to point out or mock the mistakes of 'lesser mortals' is quite boorish by my standards.

Despite the knowledge I've enjoyed gaining, when it comes down my actual gaming there is far more resemblance to Commando comics than war diaries and war establishments though; at least until 'Edinburgh Military Tattoo: The Wargame' is released anyway.

 

[joe5mc]

Lord Asbestos is right, I have taken a bit of a pounding on the forum this week! Some of it of my own making.

All I can say is that my original post was written honestly. Those are my own thoughts about where I am with the hobby right now. I just think that potentially something is being lost in the movement to making wargaming more convenient.

I expected people to disagree with me. I am happy for people to disagree with me. I'm not so keen for people to tell me my opinion is wrong, and understand that some may have taken offense if that is what they believed I was saying to them. Certainly not my intention.

After I wrote the post, I did 'throw it up on the web' to see what kind of response it would get. Actually, for the most part, I think it has prompted some really interesting discussions, here and elsewhere, that for the most part have remained civil.  And that is the point of having a forum, isn't it?

This proved a poor decision on my part, as I quickly learned how easy it is for such a wide-ranging discussion over multiple channels to completely dominate my head-space. Thus I have abandoned the discussion everywhere else. I love LAF though, it has been my go-to forum for years, and I've met loads of wonderful wargamers here, and shared in some great discussions - even with people whose opinions are very different to my own.

Again, if anyone took offense to my post, I can only say sorry, it was unintentional. Like everyone else here, I am just trying to figure out how to get the most fun / satisfaction / enjoyment from my miniatures hobby.

[carlos marighela]

Can we rename this The Official Three Yorkshiremen Sketch Thread?

Wargaming? There were sixtenn of us huddled over a single toy soldier that we had carved out of coal in’t hole in middle of ground etc, etc, etc,..... and you try telling that to youth of today and they won’t believe you.

You know I remember forty years back as well. Airfix were doing wargaming guides. Bruce Quarrie had a range of rules. Ospreys were being published back then as were the Blandford uniform books. There was a fine magazine called Battle for Wargamers, later absorbed by Military Modelling. There were loads of clubs, relatively cheap plastic and kits figures by Airfix and Matchbox abounded. Minifigs had a bloody enormous range of 25mm stuff and then you had the books by the legends of the hobby like Featherstone and Gush, etc, etc. Even in the darkest, furthest removed wilds of the antipodes we had dedicated military history bookshops like Hylands (it still exists today).

Yeah it was a fucking nightmare back then.

Now try telling that to the youth of today and they just might believe you.

[tin shed gamer]

 
I've sat on the fence feeling slightly bemused by the whole idea.
I don't understand the need for the ' In my day' reflections. Your not on your death bed
The evolution and development of the hobby has been and still is driven by you. However innovative or dire a product is, It'll only thrive if gamers buy it.
Or the company fades away.
The truth is quite simple if you feel these naive and simplistic methodologies somehow enhanced your gaming experience. Then why haven't you returned to them?
For me personally gaming has and rightly so evolved into a facet of my life, not the focus.
The comes a time when you look across a gaming table at the pair of tits arguing over dice. And hits you'I'm dammed if their going to be the only one's I see close up on a Saturday night!'
The only physical limit is time . If you choose to complain about modern fantasy figures being of limited poses and figure specific units. Whilst stood over your napoleonic armies and choosing to ignore the fact that you'd be hard pressed to find eight different poses in each regiment represented with specific figures. Then hay ho. It's your time.
Looking back has to be honest . Sat in your bedroom with an old table lamp,enamel paints,thinners,and plastic cement. Wasn't better. The only thing it was better at was the chance of your evening passing in pretty colours and four sided triangles.

[Antonio J Carrasco]

Again, if anyone took offense to my post, I can only say sorry, it was unintentional. Like everyone else here, I am just trying to figure out how to get the most fun / satisfaction / enjoyment from my miniatures hobby.

Don't be sorry, Joe. If somebody took offense, that is his problem. We are living a time when it is too easy to feel offended. That is a path that worries me, at the same time that annoys me. I disagreed with your analysis, but both your opinion piece and your answers have been always polite. Your interventions have always been those of a true gentleman. Nothing to be sorry about.

[Charlie_]

I think there was plenty in the original post to potentially disagree with, but I don't think we should give Joe a hard time! As he said, it's fuelled an interesting discussion, even if it does seem to be a bit one-sided : )

[Captain Blood]

I expected people to disagree with me. I am happy for people to disagree with me. I'm not so keen for people to tell me my opinion is wrong

The point I was trying to make. Disagree by all means. But if only people could catch themselves and do it in a non-confrontational way rather than being arseholes about it.
'I'm sorry but I don't agree with you and here's why...' is one thing. 'I'm sorry but you're totally wrong and must be an idiot' is something quite different.
Discourse on the internet consists of way too much of the latter and not enough of the former.
Well I guess it's easier to yell at people when you don't actually have to look them in the eye... You just fire off your bullets...

All I can say is that my original post was written honestly. Those are my own thoughts about where I am with the hobby right now. I just think that potentially something is being lost in the movement to making wargaming more convenient.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. We live in a golden age of figures, terrain, models, paint, books - everything you could ever possibly want. But the increasingly commercialised world of packaged wargaming systems has inevitably removed some of the creativity and originality which, for me anyway, was always part of the appeal. There's a huge amount to be said for all the lovely stuff we can get today, and I wouldn't say it's 'too easy' at all - people shouldn't have to work any harder at their hobby than they want to.
But I do think some of that freewheeling inventiveness has been lost along the way. To me, that's a bit of a shame. To most people, it's perfectly normal and they're very happy about it. As ever with these things, it's just a matter of personal taste: I want to make up rules and scenarios; you want to buy them off the shelf. As others have said above in this thread, there's no right or wrong way. It's a choice