Blitzkrieg in the West. The BEF Arrives

[deephorse]

So will 4 & 7 RTR follow the same convention?

[Etranger]

Yes, in theory. Authors tend to use them interchangeably though.

[Vis Bellica]

This came up in the proofing of the handbook, as in the first draft I had used them interchangeably too.

This annoyed my proof-reader, so we did some research, and we could find more first hand accounts that used the terms squadron and troop, even for the infantry tanks. So that's what I went for.

[Truscott Trotter]

Apparently officially the big wigs insisted the RTR use the Cavalry terms Squadrons , troopers etc but the RTR resisted unofficially 

[Derek H]

I was the proofreader who wondered about the squadron/company, troop/platoon thing and I had a quick Google around and looked at some of the books on my shelf. 

I found a lot of references to RTR squadrons and troops in 1940, and very few to companies and platoons.   See for example The History of the 4th and 7th Royal Tank Regiments http://www.4and7royaltankregiment.com/1940-1941.html   where there are 10 mentions of squadron (or squadrons), 9 of troop(s) none of  company, companies or platoon.

Though I did find frequent references to RTR battalions, not particularly surprising given that calling a formation 4th Regiment Royal Tank Regiment would just be silly.   

Page 50 of Smither's book Rude Mechanicals an account of tank maturity during the second world war has the following    "Major Reeves' squadron - the name was just beginning to replace company - reached the canal."   when taking about an action near Calais in 1940.

If you read about the desert war the RTR all seem to be described as being organised in squadrons and troops.

1940 seems to have been a time of transition in the terminology used. 

 

[Etranger]

That seems a reasonable observation Derek.

Wandering around the RTR Association website I found the following regarding 9RTR specifically (& probably relating to all RTR formations)  with the (probably official) change in nomenclature from companies to squadrons occurring in April 1941, when the battalion organisation changed.

In April 1941 a Brigade HQ Squadron was authorized. This contained 4 Cruiser tanks as the brigade fighting  headquarters, and Recce and Admin groups. At the same time companies of Army Tank Battalions were redesignated  squadrons, and the sections were redesignated troops;  and the tank establishment of the battalion was slightly changed.

http://www.royaltankregiment.com/9_RTR/historical/battle%20formations.htm


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armoured_formations_of_World_War_II confirms the date of change as 7th April 1941, which applied to Infantry Tank formations (as all RTR units were at the time).

The initial April 1938 Tank Brigade establishment was for the brigade to muster 175 tanks; each of its three battalions comprising 57 tanks, 29 officers, and 484 other ranks. The brigade headquarters would contain four tanks but could vary depending on the situation, while the battalion headquarters would contain two infantry tanks and four light tanks. Under the command of the battalion was three companies; each consisting of a headquarters, issued with one infantry tank and one light tank, and five sections, each mustering three infantry tanks.[49] On 7 April 1941, the first change was made; the formations would drop army terminology and adopt cavalry terms. The brigade would now be able to muster 178 tanks, with each battalion made up of 58 tanks, 35 officers, and 547 other ranks. The brigade headquarters was issued four cruiser tanks and the battalion headquarters four infantry tanks. The battalion’s three squadrons would comprise five troops, each of three infantry tanks, and a squadron headquarters of one infantry tank and two close support infantry tanks. The battalion remained the same through to August 1942 ...[50]
( The reference is Joslen, Lt-Col H.F. (2003) [1960]. Orders of Battle: Second World War, 1939–1945. Uckfield: Naval and Military Press. ISBN 978-1-84342-474-1., pages 192 and 194, if anyone has it handy)

I've just realised - 4 Cruiser tanks in the Brigade HQ, but none in the battalions.  I haven't noticed that before.

[Truscott Trotter]

Apparently the Filthy Fifth were still using the terms companies in 1944 just to p%$s off the GOC

[Eclaireur]

The RTR changed from 'companies and battalions' to 'squadrons and regiments' with the formation of the Royal Armoured Corps in April 1939 - officially at least.
For many in the tank business this marriage into the RAC (of RTR, cavalry, and yeomanry regiments) was the final defeat in a series of Whitehall battles in the 1930s where the 'tank professionals' who had hoped to retain a similar status to the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers as super-regiments with a monopoly over the use of armoured technology were finally overwhelmed by the lobbying power of the cavalry. The horse soldiers, having been indifferent or downright hostile to mechanisation through most of the interwar period, saw the writing on the wall in the late 1930s and started adopting armoured vehicles rapidly. As TT says, a lot of the RTR old sweats simply ignored the change and carried on using the old terminology,
EC

[deephorse]

Thanks for all of the above.  Very interesting.

[Derek H]

I wonder to what extent usage of these terms varied between the officers and men who were in the RTR pre-war and the influx of new men coming from the Royal Armoured Corps Training Regiments. 

It would seem highly likely that the pre-war officers and men would still be thinking about companies and platoons, while the new recruits would be more familiar with squadrons and troops.   

Not that I have any evidence for this.