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Author Topic: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes? (Updated)  (Read 1985 times)

Offline Mako

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 779
Hmmm, ran across a few interesting tidbits, I haven't read about before, in the last week, or so, while researching the Argentine sub San Luis' attacks on RN shipping during the Falklands Conflict.

A number of them are confirmed, by both sides, but others I hadn't heard about before, and don't quite know what to make of them.  Not too surprising, I guess, given official secrets acts, and all.

These do appear to be confirmed attacks, in spite of problems plaguing the Torpedo Fire Control System on the submarine.  Turns out there were major design flaws with the SST-4 torpedoes too, in addition to issues with the crew's servicing of them:

May 1st, 1982 - 1 or 2 torpedoes fired at a pair of British escorts - HMS Brilliant and HMS Yarmouth - one or both miss

May 10th, 1982 - 1 torpedo fired at a pair of British escorts - HMS Alacrity and HMS Arrow, and it misses too - apparently Arrow's Nixie towed decoy was damaged, but less than would normally be expected.  It is believed that the torpedo didn't explode when it hit the decoy. (The second torpedo they prepped for firing either didn't leave the tube, or was never launched by the crew, as originally planned, due to the speed of the RN vessels, and lack of a working targeting computer.  I think the latter seems to be most likely.).

May 8th - Another attack, which I'm not sure is confirmed by both sides is that the San Luis attacked one of the RN SSNs and hit it with a torpedo, but it didn't detonate either.  Can't recall if that was on Splendid or Spartan, but supposedly the attack occurred on May 8th, and it is believed the sub left the Falklands area for repairs.  Another report (see below) says there was a detonation heard, and that the torpedo is believed to have hit the bottom of the sea, or possibly a whale.

Read about it in an unclassified, US Naval War College Report:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a279554.pdf

Apparently, Splendid was patrolling to the Northwest of the Falkland Islands, and Spartan to the Northeast.  Conqueror was patrolling to the South.

An interesting footnote to the DTIC article from the US Naval War College above, mentions in Chapter V, Footnote #3, that the British admit to a torpedo hitting one of their vessels, but not penetrating, but it doesn't mention which vessel was hit - a nuke sub, perhaps?

I've read there were major problems with the old, US-made, Mk. 37 Torpedoes as well.  One source I ran across mentioned only about a 10% chance of a hit with them, or a kill, reliability-wise.  I suspect the rating is for both guiding to the target, and of the warhead actually detonating correctly, since it is an older, 1950s era design, IIRC (though there were many upgrades over the years, with various models).

https://www.navy-net.co.uk/community/threads/1982-attacks-on-rn-by-the-ara-san-luis.41067/page-3

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/how-the-falklands-war-thanks-stealthy-submarine-could-have-18495?page=2

Not sure what to make of the report.  Anyone have any info on if a RN sub was hit by a dud torpedo?

One account claimed there was a mark left on her hull, but I'm having trouble locating that again, now.

Finally, a couple of other accounts that I've run across mention torpedo attacks on the Invincible.  I was surprised to see these.

One mentions two torpedoes narrowly missing the carrier, about 50 yards behind it, and a sailor on the vessel reports fast maneuvers on one day.  Supposedly, several people on board reported seeing torpedo wakes in the water, behind it, and have admitted that, including her captain.  Don't know if that is just internet rumor, or is a fact.

Also, there was a UPI story of four torpedoes impacting the Invincible, but none detonating, dated back to 1983.  Never heard of it before, but seems a bit far-fetched with 4 out of 4 hits on the vessel.  The article claims some in the know believe it, and we do know the SST-4s had major issues.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1983/07/24/British-carrier-survived-Argentine-torpedoes/7296427867200/

Anyone heard of either of the two torpedo attacks on the Invincible before, or on their SSN?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 11:09:48 AM by Mako »

Offline Mako

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Re: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 11:03:40 AM »
Here's a report of Hermes being hit by a torpedo - admits it could have been a RN one that went astray, while trying to hunt for an Argentine sub (about 80% of the way down the page):

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42049&start=20

Offline Mako

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Re: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes? (Updated)
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 11:23:54 AM »
This article I found mentions six Argentine torpedo firing failures, but I only account for 3 - 4 below, in the attacks on the escort vessels, and the submarine/whale. 

Perhaps the other two were fired after returning back to the mainland, but it would be interesting to know, since there are reports of other torpedo near misses, and/or hits on the British carriers (both Invincible and Hermes):

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42049&sid=170e019d88dfa477ced6c3c8b4cb5616

Thoughts?

More rumors?

Facts?

Offline Hamilkar

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  • Posts: 46
Re: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes? (Updated)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 03:28:13 PM »
Mako,

Great stuff.  I've read a lot about the conflict and there were numerous mentions of torpedo waves during some of the attacks, although I've never heard confirmation.  It brings up some interesting points:

1.  The anti-submarine activities obviously weren't as good as advertised if there were that many near misses.
2.  The Argentines were completely unprepared for the conflict as no contingencies had been made for low level bombing (they didn't know how to adjust the timing on the bomb detonators) nor had they checked out their torpedoes.

Think about how that might have turned had they solved one or both of those issues.  It was bad enough losing Sheffield and the others, but it could have been disastrous.

Offline AKULA

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    • Little Wars
Re: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes? (Updated)
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 09:44:51 PM »
I’d suggest at best it’s symptomatic of the “fog of war” but more likely, a large dollop of wishful thinking on the part of the Argentine navy that didn’t exactly cover itself in glory during the conflict....

....have seen reports that they didn’t close at periscope depth...fired torpedoes from too deep...so it’s very difficult to place much faith in their AAR.

Offline Mako

  • Mad Scientist
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Re: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes? (Updated)
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 11:34:37 PM »
Thought of that.

Funny thing is, it's not the Argentines making the claims.

It's supposedly RN sailors that were on board the vessels in question.

Of course, in the wonderful age of the internet, anyone can create any story they want, and post it to sow confusion, but it is still intriguing, nonetheless.  In some cases, multiple people from the same vessel claim to have experienced these events (of course, "multiple people" could be one person, with several internet accounts).

Offline carlos marighela

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  • Flamenguista até morrer.
Re: Falklands - Invincible and RN SSN Attacked by Torpedoes? (Updated)
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2018, 02:52:17 AM »
There’s a naval expression that covers this. It’s called ‘spinning a dit’. It’s not always confined to the number of drinks consumed in Gibraltar or whores bedded in Hong Kong.
Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio não tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeão mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo