Author Topic: Carthaginian Mythology - Near Eastern deities mixed with Greek? (Read 2718 times)

Corso · « **on:** March 18, 2018, 03:01:06 PM »

I am finding it very difficult to gather information about Carthaginian deities. Reason being I want to use my carthaginians for OGAM.

The only exception are Baal, Melqart and Tanith which I did find information on.

But was Athena the same as Anath? Was Moloch worshipped in Carthage and was he the same as Hades? Don't have a clue........

Vanvlak · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2018, 03:18:45 PM »

Wikipedia

suggests it could be the case, although the strongest argument has no citation, which means it's dubious; they do have similar characteristics, however.
I'd go for match and mix i.e. use the rules available best suited to the named Punic gods.

Arlequín · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2018, 03:47:45 PM »

There was some crossover and comparison, but the Phoenicians and Canaanites provided the root for Carthage's pantheon and mythos.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Religion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchuniathon

zippyfusenet · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2018, 07:35:56 PM »

Melkart = Moloch. There is archaeological evidence of burnt offerings to Melkart at Carthage, including children. I believe the Romans identified Melkart as Saturn, but the Romans naturalized every foreign god into their pantheon one way or another. I don't believe there was any connection between Anat and Athena. As has been said, the Carthaginians worshipped Phoenician gods.

Corso · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2018, 08:46:17 PM »

Thanks for the replies

Found also some info on the osprey carthaginians book

Irregular Wars Nic · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2018, 06:40:29 PM »

Yes, look to the Phoenicians for your information.

Ba'al in his many forms was Helenised as Zeus.
Melqart/Melkart was Helenised as Herakles.
Anath could be Helenisted as Athena, Artemis or Aphrodite depending on the situation.

MachinaMandala · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2018, 08:43:37 PM »

Posting to watch.

FierceKitty · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2018, 11:21:10 PM »

Quote from: Irregular Wars Nic on March 21, 2018, 06:40:29 PM

Yes, look to the Phoenicians for your information.

Ba'al in his many forms was Helenised as Zeus.
Melqart/Melkart was Helenised as Herakles.
Anath could be Helenisted as Athena, Artemis or Aphrodite depending on the situation.

Ironically, Jehovah may owe a lot of his attributes to Baal too.

Arlequín · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2018, 07:41:33 AM »

I suspect 'shared' is more accurate than 'owed', as they apparently formed part of the same pantheon and in some traditions were brothers, as sons of El.

Personally I prefer the tradition that has Baal as the son of Dagon, it has that whole Cthulhu thing going on.

Irregular Wars Nic · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2018, 08:13:45 PM »

At the end of the day, Ba'a' means 'Master', So Ba'altars is the Master of Tarsos, Ba'al Hadad is the Lord of Fertility/Virility, Ba'al Shamin is the Master of the Heavens. Confusingly enough, the Ba'al of Tyre was Melkart. So counter to my earlier generalisation, Ba'al is often, but not always Zeus.

The interpretatio Graeca of the Semitic El (Lord) was normally Kronos (whom the Romans called Saturn).

The problem with ancient religious was the regionality of it all. In one sanctuary the Semitic Atargatis could be worshiped by Greeks as Hera, at any other sanctuary she could be worshipped as Artemis.

When it comes down to the game OGAM, either choose a Greek gods profile that best suits our style of play, or else dig deep, do some research and customise your own. The points are all in the back of the book after all.

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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Divine-Kings-Sacred-Spaces-International/dp/1407310542/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521749582&sr=1-1&keywords=divine+kings+and+sacred+spaces

Vanvlak · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2018, 05:43:50 AM »

Problem is that according to a hefty tome I dug up at Uni from a friend, the Carthaginians tended to go for just the 3, with Anath replaced by Astarte - will find the specific ref. if I remember.
The latter has the varied connotations given above - and also Hera.
So probably a good idea would be to use different incarnations (or interpretations) of the same god, which could create a very thematic force.

And speaking of Ba'al - don't forget Baltar of Caprica

Corso · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2018, 03:07:02 PM »

I think the best way is to 'create' the gods using points suggested in the ogam book and use legends and mortals from the greek list.

dadlamassu · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2018, 07:23:31 PM »

We visited Carthage many years ago and I looked at this site (or one like it) for some information
https://www.ancient.eu/Carthaginian_Religion/

Also found though not sure of provenance as all info comes from a couple of websites:https://prezi.com/8x5j-zsg_83c/mythology-of-ancient-carthage/

The Carthaginian religion is polytheistic as they have a wide range of gods and goddesses
Baal, El, the Ruler of the Universe, Son of Dagan, Rider of the Clouds, Almighty, Lord of the Earth (comparable to the Greek gods Zeus or Roman god Jupiter) Chief Carthaginian deity.
Tanit, Queen Goddess of Carthage, the Mother Goddess, Queen of Good Fortune and the Harvest
Baalat Asclepius, the God of Healing
Baal-Hammon, the God of Fertility and Renewer of all energies in the Phoenician colonies of the Western Mediterranean (comparable to Greek god Kronos or Zeus)
Adon, the god of Youth Beauty and Regeneration (comparable to Greek god Adonis)
Anath, the goddess of Love and War (Comparable to the Greek god Aphrodite)
Baalat Gubl, the Goddess of Byblos
Ashtarte, the Queen of Heaven (comparable to the Greek God Hera)
Kathirat, Goddesses of marriage and pregnancy
Kothar, Hasis, the Skilled, God of Craftsmanship
Melqart, King of the Underworld and Cycle of Vegetation)
Mot, the God of Death
Resheph and Shamash
Shahar, the God of Dawn
Shalim, the God of Dusk
Shapash, the Sun Goddess
Yamm, the God of the Sea
Yarikh, the Moon God
Other representations of Egyptian gods were also found in sacred places in Carthage.
Carthaginian beliefs
One of the most controversial beliefs of the carthaginians is their use of child sacrifice to appease their gods and court their favor. Especially Baal, el.

Bibliography...
http://phoenicia.org/pagan.html

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/uc_decker_carthrel2.htm

http://hannibalbarca.webspace.virginmedia.com/carthage-religion.htm

http://hannibalbarca.webspace.virginmedia.com/punic-gods.htm

Arlequín · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2018, 10:50:08 PM »

Quote from: dadlamassu on March 23, 2018, 07:23:31 PM

One of the most controversial beliefs of the carthaginians is their use of child sacrifice to appease their gods and court their favor. Especially Baal, el.

Only controversial to us, back then everyone was at it. 'Significant sacrifice' of first-born, first fruits, first livestock et al, was how you got the gods working for you. Or perhaps sacrificing somebody else's first-born still counted.

There are references to it in the Tanakh, notably a psalm forbidding such sacrifices, then there are the stories of Isaac or the King of Moab et al. The attempted sacrifice of Andromeda to Cetus is a Greek example.

I'm sure the Roman version of the Daily Mail had a field day exposing the vile practices of foreigners, while in the next breath offering free tickets to the Arena.

FierceKitty · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2018, 01:08:07 AM »

Human sacrifice wasn't quite unknown even in Rome, though condemned with disgust when it happened.

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Author Topic: Carthaginian Mythology - Near Eastern deities mixed with Greek? (Read 2718 times)