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Author Topic: New 2mm Renaissance Range  (Read 1201 times)

Offline DivisMal

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2018, 11:08:53 AM »
I would be very cautious using the most common pictures of Lutzen and many TYW battles they are not very accurate. The pike block with 4 blocks of shot for example was not used in the TYW or indeed for sometime before then. They just use it to show the units are Catholic.

The Swedish units are 'Brigades' so the 5 flagged block and two 3 flagged blocks plus associated musketeers (think of them as 4 groups) are a single brigade. The brigades varied in size from 1110 to 2036, average maybe 1500? Weapon ratios also varied but are usually reckoned to be 4 shot to 3 pikes on average.

The Imperialists were also in 'brigades' or battalions/battalia' with again various sizes but around 1000. They would look like standard ECW type units but with up to 10 ranks.

Both sides cavalry units varied in size but were usually grouped together into 'squadrons' of circa 500. Imperialists were generally 6 deep and the Swedes from 3 to 6 depending on type.

There is a very good new modern book on this battle - https://global.oup.com/academic/product/lutzen-9780199642540?cc=us&lang=en&

There have also been excavations at the site. Most of it is published in German (and at my home), but a good article on the analysis of a mass-grave from Lützen can be found here:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0178252

And a summary of the published articles:
https://www.researchgate.net/project/The-mass-grave-of-Luetzen

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2018, 04:38:12 PM »
Hi WFGamers-

The nice thing about modular models is that as historical understanding changes people won't need to rebase my figures; just place them in different positions.

The model of the Swedish battalion has 120 shot and 150 pike, for 270 figures total.  These are 2mm models, so obviously "figure" has its own definition.  But, in the new style models, as you can see in the French sample above, every shot model is individually "there," and every pike tip is individually "there" on the model (as in the pike block above).  Because of the way the render is turned you cna only see half of the pike tips; they are staggered, so some are hidden.  This new model is just a slightly larger version of the painted tercios I posted in this thread; the tercio model has 600 pike tips; the Swedish/ECW model is 1/4 of that model, slightly increased in scale.  270 figures to 500 men is a little better than 2:1, which is the best you can do with current technology.  When I say "represent" I meant literally, "it stands for."

Did ECW shot not fight with gaps between the infantry?  I thought  just read that they would deploy with gaps, and close them when they wanted more firepower, and that this was done in the ECW era?  If they were shoulder to shoulder there are 3 ranked shot models that can be used already...
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 07:11:41 PM by Forwardmarchstudio »

Offline robh

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2018, 07:03:06 PM »
Did ECW shot not fight with gaps between the infantry?  I thought  just read that they would deploy with gaps, and close them when they wanted more firepower, and that this was done in the ECW era?  If they were shoulder to shoulder there are 3 ranked shot models that can be used already...

They generally fought in "order" which is close (about 3 ft between files same as between ranks) but not shoulder to shoulder. There was supposed to be enough room for the 2 ranks behind the front to step forward and present muskets one to each side of the guy in the front rank so all 3 could "salvee" together. (Fine for everyone except the poor sod in the front each time who gets deafened in both ears as well as smacked in the shoulder by his own recoil)
Open order as used for counter march rotation or interpenetration by Pike was about 6 ft between files.

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2018, 07:13:47 PM »
Hmm... I might provide some looser formations then just to be careful- the more variation the better.

Offline boywundyrx

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 07:57:37 PM »
I'm looking forward (pun unintended) to these, I think they'll provide for some impressive-looking tabletop battles.

Chris

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 08:24:33 PM »


Here's the reworked ECW/TYW formation. 
I've got some cavalry squares in various depths as well. When used together with the stand-alone pike you'll be able to make formations like these:



Samples of all of the ECW/TYW stuff is being printed up as I type this (including the sprue-version of the model in this post).  Concerning this last model, you'd get (4) of them for $16, 60mm x 20mm, and over 800 figures/pike total.  Which means that for the cost of a few boxes of 28mm plastic you could do a battle like Lutzen at a little more than 2:1 figure-to-troop ratio.  I'll eventually get an exact ration nailed down.  I'm maintaining my commitment to a known ground scale, even though technology has forced me to retreat from my dream of 1/1 scale model stuff (actually I could do that but I'd have to go to 3mm figures and for a variety of reasons I don't want to do so).  Anyway, I like to know exactly what my figures represent, and I think my customers will want to know too.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 08:47:01 PM by Forwardmarchstudio »

Offline WFGamers

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2018, 11:05:34 AM »
Forwardmarchstudio,

I think others have beaten me to answering your questions to me, but if not ask again.

I just wanted to say I am very interested in doing this era in 2mm. Unfortunately this interest means I already have 2mm ECW/TYW armies in metal from another company. But I love what you are doing and I have other projects in mind that I hope to use your figures for.

Finally I am not sure if you use facebook but you might want to take a look at this group if you do - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1639662269377760/

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2018, 08:14:23 PM »
WFGamers- glad to hear it!

I've done a 3mm blog for years, and only recently got into 2mm because I saw the opportunity to do something that no one had done before to my knowledge:  a complete 3d printed range that (1) prints consistently, (2) looks good aesthetically, (3) is innovative in a broader way, and (4) was economically competitive with traditional model soldier lines.

I'm not on Facebook but maybe I can contact those guys somehow and let them know about my product. Thanks for the tip on that point.

Not sure if you've seen my blog, but here's the link:

https://forwardmarchminiatures.blogspot.com

Most of the posts are about the first iteration of my 2mm figures, which were smaller and cheaper than the current line.  They were also at exact 2mm ground scale; however, the technology isn't quite at the point to print sub-1mm wide figures.  What I really need to do though is get out to some conventions; people are often blown away when they see my figures in person, especially the pike blocks. 

Anyway, I'm almost done with a basic Marston Moore set that would cost about $100 per side (about 24-30 pike bases, a bunch of cavalry, some artillery, a sprue of commanders, and maybe some supply wagons).

40mm x 20mm Pike Blocks



40mm x 20mm Cavalry in 4 ranks



20mm Commander bases



40mm x 20mm Artillery



A few tweaks to make but these are getting close.  I may make the artillery pieces a bit longer for the Renaissance; these are for the later horse and musket period and are a bit shorter.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 09:34:15 PM by Forwardmarchstudio »

Offline bigredbat

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2018, 08:47:54 PM »
Look at 3 ranks for the cavalry- they fought either in 3 or 6, and usually in troops with intervals inbetween

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2018, 09:09:51 PM »
Like these guys?



These can also be used to represent the Saxon cavalry at Borodino; apparently they were about the last cavalry unit to fight in three ranks.

I don't have these on sprues yet but they will be available on 20mm, 30mm, 40mm and 60mm frontages.  Some of these are already available, other will be coming shortly, over the coming week. 

My old cavalry models had gaps for companies; those were for Napoleonic units  though, where it was easier to figure out how big the companies were.  I'm fairly well versed on Napoleonic warfare; less so on the Renaissance, so a lot of my research is based on period woodcuts.  Which has the advantage that when people look at the battles they'll immediately recognize whats happening on the table-top.  On the other hand, as someone on here mentioned, those old woodcuts weren't always accurate.  This is one reason for my modular approach. 

Now that said, how big were these gaps between troops?  I would imagine that you mean gaps between lines?  To create something like that it might be better to use (3) of my 2-rank cavalry set up in a column.  You'd be looking at a bigger ground scale though.  The figures above are abstracted; you'd need to use the bigger bases to get closer to true ground scale.

And that being said, now that I look at the 40mm bases again, maybe a gap right down the middle would look good?  Alternatively, maybe I could place a larger gap there, and insert a command unit right in the middle between two bodies of cav?  That would give each piece a focal point.  Hmmm.... I might do exactly that.  I'll keep the models above as building blocks for people who want larger units, but also create a base with an HQ as a kind of diorama base that would compliment the pike-and-shotte bases I posted above.   

I just got news that my lancer model printed up successfully; I should get it in the mail within a week.  It should be perfect for men-at-arms, reiters, and Napoleonic era lancers equally.  I'm very excited to see how it looks in person.  My old lancer experiment was ok, but I think this one will be superior.  We'll see.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 09:21:44 PM by Forwardmarchstudio »

Offline Forwardmarchstudio

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Re: New 2mm Renaissance Range
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2018, 10:50:49 PM »
DivisMal- I wanted to mention that those links were very interesting.  They reminded me of the movie The Last Valley, haha.

http://balagan.info/renaissance-battlefield-tactics

I found a website with some schematics of Spanish tercio formations- this is really interesting.  It argues in favor of making more modular pieces.  The deep formation designed to advance along the flank is interesting; it reminds me of a French attack column moving on the flank, except on a larger scale....