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Author Topic: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th  (Read 13029 times)

Offline DivisMal

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2018, 05:13:02 PM »
I don't think a lot of folk realise it's PVC yet... I've seen folk who know it's plastic still talking about it like it's gonna be GW style hard plastics...

That’s probably very true. I’m not even a big GW fan, but must acknowledge that their hard plastics are way better than anything CMON/ Monolith & Co. throw at the market.

That said, pvc is a very generous term, and the Mythic Battles: Pantheon PVC is well suited to show details and allow decent painting. It’s just not as god as GW plastics or metal.

Offline gibby64

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2018, 06:35:31 PM »
There is buzz about them being ABS... since the terrain is being made of ABS... just the latest... I expect them to announce the plastic today... that has to be 900 of the over 1000 comments so far... (what is the plastic?).

Offline Timbor

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2018, 05:16:54 AM »
http://www.sans-detour.com/public/Aarklash%20Post/Aarklash%20Post%20%239%20EN.pdf

Miniature's bodies will be PVS, and the weapons will be in ABS. This is the approach that CMON is taking with their GoT tabletop game figures... which look decent in pictures, but I won't have those in hand until August at the earliest...

There is a mention in the letter of setting a funding goal to try and make it all HIPS (GW style hard plastic) but IMO that is a bit of a pipe dream, Would love to see it happen though!
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Offline Psychoflexible

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2018, 08:18:51 AM »
320 € for the same old minis but in pvc. We have an expression here in France for that: foutage de gueule !


Offline nic-e

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2018, 11:48:07 AM »
http://www.sans-detour.com/public/Aarklash%20Post/Aarklash%20Post%20%239%20EN.pdf

Miniature's bodies will be PVS, and the weapons will be in ABS. This is the approach that CMON is taking with their GoT tabletop game figures... which look decent in pictures, but I won't have those in hand until August at the earliest...

There is a mention in the letter of setting a funding goal to try and make it all HIPS (GW style hard plastic) but IMO that is a bit of a pipe dream, Would love to see it happen though!

that seems like a promise made by an earnest but naive creator. It's one thing to say "well we can just scan them and make them in plastic" It's quite another to actually adjust those scans in such a way as to lay them out for casting in a steel mould without MAJOR reworking. The labour involved in just getting the existing miniatures ready for tooling would be insane. Every single figure would need scanning, breaking up, reworking, slicing up again...it makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Not saying it couldn't be done, But not on the budget and time scale they seem to be promising.
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Offline DivisMal

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2018, 03:31:19 PM »
that seems like a promise made by an earnest but naive creator. It's one thing to say "well we can just scan them and make them in plastic" It's quite another to actually adjust those scans in such a way as to lay them out for casting in a steel mould without MAJOR reworking. The labour involved in just getting the existing miniatures ready for tooling would be insane. Every single figure would need scanning, breaking up, reworking, slicing up again...it makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Not saying it couldn't be done, But not on the budget and time scale they seem to be promising.

I agree: this is a major problem!

I have the pretty good models from Mythic Battles: Pantheon at home and while these are really nice and okay for the price, you can definitely see that they were designed for this type of production from the very beginning.

If you compare them to Rackham sculpts (consisting of multiple parts, overlappings etc.) they are pretty „flat“. I’m not an expert in miniature production, but as far as I understand the process, exactly these aspects of sculpting are still best shown in metal (and resin) casts.

It’s also enlightening to compare Rackham to the modern AoS plastics, which are also pretty damn well made concerning dynamic poses and details. GW uses plastics and invested for nearly two decades (or even more?) into the production until they got both the technical means to make such models as well as the experience how to design the various parts from which a model is made.

GW models consist of „layers“, i.e. flat parts glued over each other to create dynamic poses, Rackham models divided the model by relatively simple „cuts“ along the joints of extremities.

Of course GW also uses a different material and with PVC it’s another thing, but I cannot believe you simply take the moulds, scan them and cast them in PVC and get the same model as in metal.

Offline ced1106

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2018, 03:50:36 PM »
that seems like a promise made by an earnest but naive creator. It's one thing to say "well we can just scan them and make them in plastic" It's quite another to actually adjust those scans in such a way as to lay them out for casting in a steel mould without MAJOR reworking. The labour involved in just getting the existing miniatures ready for tooling would be insane. Every single figure would need scanning, breaking up, reworking, slicing up again...it makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Not saying it couldn't be done, But not on the budget and time scale they seem to be promising.

Glad to see someone noticed!

I'm not seeing evidence that the creators have experience in miniatures production. They've run several KS for RPGs, but not miniatures. The owner of SD also has another OLGS company, which is having financial troubles. Take a look at the Dakka thread for more info. SD also plans to release a Confrontation Boardgame in 2019, so this isn't the only opportunity for you to get some Confrontation miniatures.

Offline Schrumpfkopf

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2018, 04:06:27 PM »
To re-release the minis in another medium is challenging as there are more then 300 + parts. No Idea how feasable it is to get them done in another medium such as affordable plastic, but pretty much everything is possible if masters or first off's are at hand. I'd be very surprised if this goes down smoothly. Then again - CMON might help with pulling some strings in the background, which would certainly help, at least with the production side of things.

As for a hard plastic option - that's simply not going to happen, and it shows a certain lack of understanding of the involved processes to even ponder with that.

Note: I am looking for the past 2 years into all things plastic, and I know nobody who's genuinely excited about plastic bits. I quite like the idea of mixing PVC and stronger materials tho, but this - again - would include cutting masters and making proper joints, and finding production and fulfillment facilities that can turn this mess into products.

I will pledge £1 as I think there's a few things to learn.  :)
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Offline nic-e

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2018, 04:16:37 PM »
Glad to see someone noticed!

I'm not seeing evidence that the creators have experience in miniatures production. They've run several KS for RPGs, but not miniatures. The owner of SD also has another OLGS company, which is having financial troubles. Take a look at the Dakka thread for more info. SD also plans to release a Confrontation Boardgame in 2019, so this isn't the only opportunity for you to get some Confrontation miniatures.

I noticed that they only really have experience with RPGS. I assume then that they are pretty up on the production and work needed to get books and such out to the public, A challenge in its own right. But the more i look at what they're trying to do with an existing range of sculpts (possibly without acess to masters/concept art/original master moulds.ect) the more i think they are going to come up against a big problem at some point. PVC casting is something I'm only mildly familiar with, But as with any material you can't simply stick one material in a mould designed for another material and expect it to be just fine, and you can't just cast a model made in one material and expect a new material to work to the same limits and strengths of that earlier material.

I wonder who they have attached to actually make the models? They surely must have asked someone to make them and presented them with what they have and asked what can be done.  If they have a veteran mould maker and casting company ready to go then things will probably go smoothly but slowly.
If they've contacted a company in china to just recast everything in PVC then we may see a fast cheap and shockingly low quality turn out for this project.

I'm curious to see what happens and how they tackle this.

Offline nic-e

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2018, 04:28:59 PM »
Sorry for the double post but it's a seperate thing! :D

I'm very curious to know what they'll do once they run out of legacy sculpts to recast.
Rackham had a very distinct, high quality style, But looking back on it it was VERY grounded in the 90's. I don't really know if, without the original creators on board, anyone could recapture that same style tone and attention to detail.

Look for example at the scenery being offered with the kickstarter. the company running things have clearly outsourced this element to someone else, and as such they have some serviceable but not exactly great scenery. It's not the worst scenery, But i could make the same in about an hour or so, and i could pick up something similar from any number of companies. Nothing about it says "rackham" to me. Tabletop world says "rackham" because of it's attention to detail and style, and that's really the kind of quality level these guys need to keep hitting if they want to keep their future activities in line with the legacy they have to build on.



This is a problem.A fantasy tabletop wargame is almost entirely a creative and aesthetically driven thing!
sure, there are rules, But the style and setting are what make people buy your miniatures and models. no one buys mantic elves JUST because they love kings of war. If the company running this have an attitude of "good enough" to the scenery, It seems likely that that same attitude will carry over onto new model releases and future development.
 for a game like this that will live and die on how well the people running it can tap into peoples nostalgia for a very specific style and tone, Making things "good enough" will quickly kill this one.

In short, Rackham are well remembered and loved for their distinct aesthetic, And failing to put in the effort and time to mimic this , Or god forbid not realising that that's what people want, is a risky game.


Offline DivisMal

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2018, 06:03:05 PM »

[...] but pretty much everything is possible if masters or first off's are at hand.


I forgot where I read this, I think it was the German tabletop newsportal Brueckenkopf-online, but somewhere it was reported that they (i.e. SD) had sold off a large lump of the masters...

Offline FionaWhite

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2018, 07:08:30 PM »
I was actually looking forwards to this KS but with the need for a massive all-in pledge, poor service from the aforementioned OLGS ran by the manager of SD, apparent inexperience with making minis and all that, I'm getting a very bad feeling about this.

Edit: reading that Dakka thread (from page 19 onwards) just raises further concerns.  :-X
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 07:19:41 PM by FionaWhite »

I really have no idea what I'm doing.

Offline gibby64

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2018, 05:14:25 AM »
They claim that they have all of the original molds for these figures... I think they have been talking/working with legacy miniatures who also reproduced rackham sculpts in plastic... and apparently did a decent job of it... I have no doubt they can get it done as it's already being done... I wish the community would stop asking for HIPS as that is a totally different process and has not been done with rackham guys yet... I have a lot of rackham metal, but have not collected several of these factions and would love to get them... the price is fine... lots of these guys go for $20-30 each on ebay... that would get you what, 15 guys for the all in price vs. Over 220?... yes metal vs plastic, but still... I'm a decent painter... I made the horrific dragon strike sculpts look pretty nice... I can make these look really good.

Offline gibby64

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2018, 05:18:47 AM »
Griffin Exorcist I just finished... I'm more motivated to get these done now... 18ish months of lead time!

Offline gibby64

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Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2018, 05:35:07 AM »
A Lion Royal guard I also finished... currently only working on guys that look like they aren't going to be in the kickstarter... his right hand still needs a touch up where I had to repair the axe
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 05:37:19 AM by gibby64 »