*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 20, 2018, 01:38:15 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Author Topic: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th  (Read 13028 times)

Offline nic-e

  • scatterbrained genius
  • Posts: 2078
    • Mystarikum
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2018, 08:21:48 PM »
From dakkadakka:

"The person who will be in charge of the miniature production has been answering more questions on Discord.

However, I am not knowledgeable in these things to know the veracity of their claims.

They have stated that they can use all the existing "masters" to create PVC molds and "no scanning is required" nor "rework"

They also confirmed that the main body will be PVC and that weapons and other bits that need to be straight will be ABS. "


Now as i have said, My experience with PVC casting is minimal, I've only ever worked with it on a large scale for fine art purposes.
But to me this seems worrying.

Either they are using a two part off the shelf pvc mix and casting it in rubber moulds, which is viable but has all the issues of resin casting plus the material limitations of PVC.

Of they are actually using metal moulds to do this on a mass scale (which given the amount of models they want to make seems sensible)  in which case they'll be using the masters to create these moulds, But these masters will need adjusting for undercuts/pull/detail loss/shrinkage rates.

It really seems like the physical production side of this has been largely swept aside as something that doesn't need thinking about.
never trust a horse, they make a commitment to shoes that no animal should make.

http://mystarikum.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline Coenus Scaldingus

  • scientist
  • Posts: 433
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2018, 08:52:21 PM »
It really seems like the physical production side of this has been largely swept aside as something that doesn't need thinking about.
From what I've read, the company in charge doesn't seem to have much of a history in creating miniatures. The recent mention that they "could try making them in HIPS" also implies a limited understanding of the dissimilarity of the processes involved. The kickstarter goal probably was (as often is the case) lower than the actual required funds anyway, but not even in the neighbourhood of what would be necessary to create a fraction of these in hard plastic.

Combine all that with the fact we have no idea how successful their proposed ideas will be, and I'm fairly certain I will not be touching this in the kickstarter period. I suppose this technically is what kickstater should be used for - a big expensive project with risks involved - but I'd rather spend my money when I have some idea what I'm paying for. I have no idea whether it could work, but I'm not exactly convinced that it will.
~Ad finem temporum~

Offline nic-e

  • scatterbrained genius
  • Posts: 2078
    • Mystarikum
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2018, 09:39:14 PM »
I suppose this technically is what kickstater should be used for - a big expensive project with risks involved - but I'd rather spend my money when I have some idea what I'm paying for. I have no idea whether it could work, but I'm not exactly convinced that it will.

I worry tho that these project detract from the potential of crowdfunding platforms to actually KICKSTATER anything. This is an established company, they have existing products. They don't have the means or experience in producing miniatures and as such are using kickstarter as damage limitation. If it goes tits up then oh well, we lost some money and time, but we can give back peoples pledges and walk away without having dunk £500000 of our own money into something right off the bat.

But that attitude of big money risk limitation can damage the idea of crowdfunding to such a degree that smaller , well costed projects, like an individual looking to produce a single range of figures, or cast and sell their first sculpt as a means of getting to grips with the requirements of running a business, Are going to be viewed as too risky. after all, if a company with alot of money can fuck up, what chance does some guy in a garage stand to do it right! the big projects that don't do their research damage the perception in the mind of backers of small projects that have priced everything up to the nearest penny and are ready and rearing to go.


I think this project is also symptomatic of a wider issue I;ve noticed recently with regards to the void between the desire of many hobbyists to be "in the business" and the technical skill needed to actually make and produce a 3d product. it's the lack of understanding that leads to someone saying "well i have the master sculpt, so i can just make a steel mould no problem." in theory yes, in practice you need more tools and know who than you're accounting for.
I come at everything from the point of view of someone that studied sculpture, so everything at its most basic has to work as a physical object, and you have to understand how to get to that point before you can do anything else.

too often people forget that this is very much a creative industry, and as such requires a great deal of not just passion but serious technical knowledge to make work. this is a big commitment, without much room for error and a very steep learning curve.
But this is their first time producing miniatures!  It's not the ideal time to learn the basics of mould making, material limitations, principles of sculpting. Trying to navigate the physical material issues of recasting hundreds of masters in a new medium would present a challenge to even an experienced caster, But doing so on your first try, without knowing what you're actually doing, with this many people backing you? that's not a steep curve, it's bloody vertical!

Offline The Voivod

  • mad scientist
  • Posts: 632
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2018, 10:40:02 PM »
Not saying you are wrong, but do we know they don't know what they're doing?

It might be their first time as a company, but do we know they do not have someone on board, or at least consulting people who do know what needs to be done?

Haven't looked very deeply into it, but I can't say, one way or the other, at this point.
'Mercy? I am far to brave to grant you mercy.'

Offline nic-e

  • scatterbrained genius
  • Posts: 2078
    • Mystarikum
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2018, 12:49:43 AM »
Not saying you are wrong, but do we know they don't know what they're doing?

It might be their first time as a company, but do we know they do not have someone on board, or at least consulting people who do know what needs to be done?

Haven't looked very deeply into it, but I can't say, one way or the other, at this point.

Alot of the worry has come from a combination of statements.

Throwing around the idea that they'll make things from HIPs , saying they don't need to do any reworking of sculpts and masters for a new material, not putting out any actual concrete information on material for the first couple of days and then switching between answers.
These things all have different needs and costs, and it seems that if they'd done the safe amount of research and ground work with regards to the actual physical miniature production, they'd have had a concrete answer from the start. Even something as simple as "we've budgeted for PVC but if we meet a certain goal we may look at adapting our plans and going for HIPS. " would show that they've considered this. But just saying "plastic. wait, no, HIPS! no...we mean vinyl... but only some of it..." seems like they aren't sure what they're doing.

They're juggling alot of money, i know if that were me, I'd be damn sure what i can afford before committing (or not)  to anything.

EDit: I just found the last bit of info they put out regarding material. It simply says "we're using two pvc for now, If we get enough, we'll use HIPS sprues and rework the models" that to me doesn't read as a well costed and planned project.
I have a theory that they went with an all in one pledge so they could tool up a single mould containing all the figures, get them cast cheap in PVC and pump them out like toy soldiers.
(also not really sure why anyone would want a rackham miniature on a sprue, they never really screamed modular to me.)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:19:51 AM by nic-e »

Offline beefcake

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • galactic brain
  • *
  • Posts: 5845
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 03:54:11 AM »
Or are they just being super sneaky. PVC for now and if they can raise the $20,000,000 to put it all into HIPS they will do it.  lol
Yes they need to be more concrete about things.

Offline ced1106

  • scientist
  • Posts: 307
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 01:26:30 PM »
They're super sneaky as in "Super! We made all this money! Let's sneak off from these guys and never reappear again!"

Credit to Limonata (and TurboCooler) on Dakka:

Quote from: Limonata 717182 9943157 null
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.

Good work, nic-e. I'm not seeing a scam, but "Maybe a bit but not that much"?? Can you can have "maybe a bit" of a train wreck? Who's in for a pound?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:31:54 PM by ced1106 »

Offline Daeothar

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • scatterbrained genius
  • *
  • Posts: 2977
  • Hahaah! Fear me, if you dare!
    • 1999legacy.com
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 02:57:01 PM »
I'm not sure if I fully understand that last post, although the quotes at least, are somewhat clearer.

I think that, even if they state what they did in that quote, armed with LAF's (and beyond's) collective knowledge, one cannot but wonder if the guys behind this KS are being a tad too positive in regards to the technical feasibility of their plans.

All posed questions relating to whether or not certain materials can be cast using moulds for a different material are therefore, in my opinion perfectly viable. I've never heard of plastics being cast in moulds created for use with metals, especially not HIPS. Most professional metal moulds are spin moulds, while HIPS is injected in its moulds under pressure. I'd love to be proven wrong, but until that's the case, I remain highly doubtful whether this is possible at all.

So the only thing I can say with any certainty at this point, is that I'm doubtful if their optimism will see the entire Kickstarter through to a satisfactory (for all involved) ending. As I've seen utterly dedicated and committed people begin a Kickstarter they were not able to fulfill due to circumstances and underestimation of certain aspects of the process. Add to that some poorly worded and unmoderated communications, and you have a recipe ready to completely burn up during re-entry.

Like some said before; I'd be all over HIPS Confrontation miniatures cast from the old metal moulds without any loss of detail. But until I can see some actual production results to make up my mind based on facts, I remain highly doubtful (but also a bit hopeful?)...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 02:59:01 PM by Daeothar »

'He who stumbles around in darkness with a stick is blind. But he who sticks out in darkness is...fluorescent'

Painting Goal for 2018: 100 miniatures - Tally per 08-09-2018: 67

Offline DivisMal

  • mastermind
  • Posts: 1242
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 06:12:02 PM »
OMG....has anyone checked the KS page?

They’re bleeding...the project is slowly but steadily losing money. Already 21(!) Early Birds have become available since yesterday evening.

They will have to cancel the campaign if his continues...they are now € 8,000,- below the last strethgoal.

Offline nic-e

  • scatterbrained genius
  • Posts: 2078
    • Mystarikum
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 07:50:03 PM »


Good work, nic-e. I'm not seeing a scam, but "Maybe a bit but not that much"?? Can you can have "maybe a bit" of a train wreck? Who's in for a pound?

To clarify, I don't think anyone is being scammed, cheated or robbed here.
As the old saying goes, never chalk up to malice what could easily be chalked up to ignorance.

I don't want them to fail, because doing so means the rights and sculpts for confronation will wallow in uncertainty for another decade.While i have no real nostalgia for it, only really knowing of it at the time through the pages of a few fantasy miniature magazines that I managed to snag from forbidden planet in the early 2000's , I like the sculpts and style, and i think a game that puts a strong aesthetic focus first deserves to succeed.

My concern is that they have lowballed this in the hope that they can make the whole thing look like a storming success, crash through their goals, and then use the bulk of what they make to cover the actual productions costs which would never have been covered by their initial goal. but by not having a very clear goal for backers to focus on IE; material type, stretch goals, rules ect, They'll end up with all the money they asked for but not enough to do what they promised.

I worry that their very defensive attitude on kickstarter comes not from passion for the project but from panic at the amount of work they didn't realise they need to do and are now being asked about.
I want them to do well (mostly because then i might be able to get AT-43 back!) but it just doesn't seem like they've set out the best path to do so.


Offline beefcake

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • galactic brain
  • *
  • Posts: 5845
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2018, 09:11:51 PM »
To clarify my previous statement  I do t think they are scamming either. That post was in jest.

Offline DivisMal

  • mastermind
  • Posts: 1242
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2018, 08:15:22 AM »
...there are now 44 Early Birds available. The project is steadily losing the trust of its funders. 15k below the last stretchgoal.

Offline robh

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • scatterbrained genius
  • *
  • Posts: 2227
  • Spanish offworld colonies
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2018, 10:29:09 AM »
I think a lot of people got very carried away with the thought of Confrontation coming back. Which is kind of surprising since the game itself was never that successful according to the shops I frequented. Lots of figure sales and some very vocal/dedicated fans but not a wide persistent player base.

I am pretty sure there are backers here who really don't know how the super detailed skirmish Confrontation 3/3.5 works and have been hooked by the name and reputation based on the figures, which is a problem as in PVC there will be little comparison to the original metals.

Following the updates and comments the KS seems to be developing 3 areas of doubt;
Firstly there is real doubt over the ability of the SD team to make it work, especially given a) their total lack of experience with figure production (they are a book publisher) and b) their lack of experience with initial product development (the books they print are only French language versions of other companies products). This seems to be coming across in the very muddled answers or deflection of questions.

Secondly the entire concept seems flawed in that the huge buy in cost does not include a printed rulebook so is not an actual "game", it is just a big "pick n' mix" box of cheap Chinese plastic figures, some scenery and a couple of paper battlemats. Which is a problem given you are expected to buy about 200 figures for a game that is only designed to play with forces of less than 10 and have to download and print off your own rulebook, stat cards, spell cards and a myriad of tokens.

There is a line of thought that the SD guys are purely using this to fund the creation of the PVC figures for their planned Boardgame. Something that will use the name but be "based on Confrontation" rather than being "Confrontation". Hence no development of the existing rules and forces as they will be totally redundant in the new format.

Thirdly (and why I personally think going anywhere near this KS is a mistake) DS are owned/run by the same people as own/run Ludikbaazar which is in severe (probably terminal) financial trouble, lots of complaints over incomplete and unfulfilled orders, suppliers cutting off credit and as of late March a final "destock" sale.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540/717182.page#9939004

Sadly, as a consequence of all this the excellent Cadwallon were hit with a C&D notice to end production and sales of the actual metal Rackham figures and the game that they were developing.

Offline DivisMal

  • mastermind
  • Posts: 1242
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2018, 12:03:11 PM »
Sadly, as a consequence of all this the excellent Cadwallon were hit with a C&D notice to end production and sales of the actual metal Rackham figures and the game that they were developing.

Is it? That's really a shame. After seeing this KS crumble I had hoped to get some of the sets I really would have loved to collect (Goblin Pirates!) from their site.

Offline beefcake

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • galactic brain
  • *
  • Posts: 5845
Re: KS for Confrontation 'Resurrection' April 17th
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2018, 12:17:56 PM »
Why didn't they just go for selling metals? The molds were designed for that I take it. Just simplified pledges of set miniature groups (even focus on just selling 1 lot of minis from 1 mold to make picking and packing easy.)
They definitely wouldn't have people dropping like flies. Easier to cost out that way I'd imagine.