old oldschool fatasy? A gap in the market, or a forgotten relic?

[beefcake]

I'd say the single biggest influence for me in what I like in a fantasy would have to be the fighting fantasy books. I loved the gritty look to the world and the wide amount of inhabitants.
In regards to Arthurian fantasy vs reality, I remember being very disappointed learning that the reality was not shining armour but the sub Roman as mentioned earlier. I still feel some disappointment at that but it does encourage me to read more widely about the history of arthur (any good novels put there?) I think the bretonians really hit it o  thr head for me as well with fantasy medieval. But it also irks me seeing them mixed in with the more technologically advanced empire.

[Daeothar]

In regards to Arthurian fantasy vs reality, I remember being very disappointed learning that the reality was not shining armour but the sub Roman as mentioned earlier.

Yes; I had a bit of a struggle adapting to this imagery as well. But eventually I've grown to like and appreciate it. And here I was actually helped by some questionable (but still entertaining) movies, such as the Clive Owen Arthur and either The Lost Legion or The Eagle; one of which makes allusions to its protagonist becoming the later Arthur too I believe.

They're in stark contrast with Excalibur of course (btw: I swear that in one of the fight scenes halfway in the movie, there is a bascinet wearing knight that reminded me of a Mk6 Space Marine; I was really excited by that back in the day ), and especially with what I feel might be the pinnacle of the high medieval Arthurian movies; First Knight. I just can't stand Richard Gere for some reason, so he made me loathe the movie, but it does have all the requisite elements in abundance!

I think the bretonians really hit it o  thr head for me as well with fantasy medieval. But it also irks me seeing them mixed in with the more technologically advanced empire.

I absolutely agree with that. But to be fair; there was a big mountain range and an enchanted forest between the two, so contact was probably minimal...

Also, there were parallels in the real world, although not with such a wide gap in development of course.

[Machinegunkelly]

As of a couple of years back I have this on going Project called Corragh. It has staled a bit, but occasionally I build and paint on it. It is old school Fantasy themed and I try to use the norman, viking look of it. Photobucket hides most of the pics but if you press them you should be able to see the pics.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=55961.0

You should also look up Jevenkas Sword and Sorcery thread on this forum. It is great Reading and an endless source of inspiration for old schoolers.

[Sir Barnaby Hammond-Rye]

Nobody's mentioned "The Worm Ouroboros", or did I miss it?

[nic-e]

Well i decided to try and capture some old school Arthurian mystery in my miniatures.

[Anselm van Helsing]

I'm biased, because I've played Pendragon and it continues to have a big influence on my weekly RPG's. So, in a manner, this kind of oldschool fantasy without the fantasy 'races' but with lots of mysticism and faerie is very much alive for me.

But since we are on a miniatures forum, my question would be, how would you bring this aesthetic and especially the mental feeling on to a gaming table? Does it need a game & figures of its own, or has it got more to do with a certain state of mind, a willingness to play with that? Miniature battle games - and combat oriented RPG's too - usually focus on the combat. And things become practical and dark. And you start to think of game design and how you can fit in factions/races that fight differently and fight interestingly. For me, this kind of thinking always kills the Arthurian aesthetic, the magic of faerie.

Then people keep mentioning WHFB 4/5th ed Bretonnia. Although it's in a battle game of Tolkienesque and darkening fantasy, people still read the figures and the rules as referring to the fantastic Arthurian. So the Arthurian definitely is there, if only you want it to be there?

[Daeothar]

Then people keep mentioning WHFB 4/5th ed Bretonnia. Although it's in a battle game of Tolkienesque and darkening fantasy, people still read the figures and the rules as referring to the fantastic Arthurian. So the Arthurian definitely is there, if only you want it to be there?

In that particular case, it's not about the world surrounding Bretonnia; that's all dark and grim etc. But Bretonnia itself would actually feel like an anachronism within the WHFB world; a technologically and culturally isolated kingdom, with virtuous knights in shiny armour, damsels in distress and at least one strange woman lyin' in a pond distributin' swords.

It even borders an enchanted forest with faerie people in it.

And then there's the whole Morgana leFay, Grail- and Questing Knights thing, and of course the Green Knight and the Fey Enchantress (on Unicorn no less). All Arthurian themes, stuck on a background based on (roughly) 12th or 13th century England. So there is also a King Leoncoeur (Lionheart), and a Robin Hood derivative.

So if that does not make for a medieval Arthurian background, I don't know what would...

[Hobgoblin]

Well i decided to try and capture some old school Arthurian mystery in my miniatures.

That's a suitably moody and mysterious shot!

Oddly enough, your initial post in this thread got me thinking "How would I use Kev Adams goblins in an Arthurian setting?". This was the outcome (although it's stricltly more Jack Vance's Lyonesse than Malory ...)

Have you read Lyonesse, by the way? It's tremendous - all the chivalry and romance of Malory (and Boorman), all the intrigue of A Song and Ice of Fire (but better written and much less flabby) and a huge dash of Vance's own perversity and humour.

[DivisMal]

In that particular case, it's not about the world surrounding Bretonnia; that's all dark and grim etc. But Bretonnia itself would actually feel like an anachronism within the WHFB world; a technologically and culturally isolated kingdom, with virtuous knights in shiny armour, damsels in distress and at least one strange woman lyin' in a pond distributin' swords.

It even borders an enchanted forest with faerie people in it.

And then there's the whole Morgana leFay, Grail- and Questing Knights thing, and of course the Green Knight and the Fey Enchantress (on Unicorn no less). All Arthurian themes, stuck on a background based on (roughly) 12th or 13th century England. So there is also a King Leoncoeur (Lionheart), and a Robin Hood derivative.

So if that does not make for a medieval Arthurian background, I don't know what would...

That’s definitely very Arthurian, but also highlights the problems of different approches to the setting. I always felt the Bretonnians felt so much out of place in the Old World of Warhammer, that they simply didn’t work. If the Empire somehow would have resembled 12th/13th ct. Europe and no one had guns, I would not have had these reservations.

A good setting, like the Arthurian needs some consistency and „closedness“, IMHO. We need to be not tempted by Moorcock, Tolkien and Co. These can be enjoyed better alone.

[DivisMal]

Btw: Have you seen this thread? It’s Age of Sigmar, but captures a lot of the feeling for me:
Fae and Giants seem to do it for me, it seems.

[Daeothar]

Yes, I think I can agree to that...

Obviously, the WHFB setting was created so every single fantasy and historical trope could be shoehorned in there.

Perhaps you remember the Albion campaign from back in the day? An addition to the WHFB world with Celtic flavour, or the Norse, who are vikings in disguise, and then Ancient Egyptianesque Khemri, Italian city states with their mercenaries, which contained a unit of Ancient Greek(ish) pikemen; the list of (perceived) anachronisms goes on and on. And that's just the human factions!

But at the heart of the Bretonnian background lies an undeniably Arthurian flavour. Of course later on, this has been watered down in some places and exaggerated in others, to better fit the faction with in the WHFB world as a whole (because Bretonnians were just too shiny, bright, optimistic and hopeful goodie-two-shoes until then).

And back in the day, the Empire was not as technologically advanced as it was when the world exploded; a lot less guns and cannons, more crossbows and pikes, warwagons instead of steamtanks and a lot less fluffy sleeves. Oh; and if I recall correctly, Bretonnians had (siege) cannons too!

Bretonnia was set in the WHFB world, yes, but fluffwise, its inhabitants rarely, if ever, ventured outside of their own realm. Their only contact with the outside was with the Woodelves of Lorien, right nextdoor. And even that contact was very limited (many knights disappeared if they ventured too deep in the woods).

So I've always imagined that Kingdom on its own, as if it were set on an island so to speak... But of course, to enjoy an actual game of WHFB, you need opponents, and those would usually not be Bretonnians, so then we have medieval Arthurians fighting Moorcockian Chaos warriors, or (very roughly) Tolkien based Orcs. And I agree that this detracts from the whole Arthurian theme.

But only on the tabletop! Fluffwise, I think the theme still stands as solidly as it ever has. Therefore, when thinking about Bretonnians, I prefer to simply ignore all the other scraped together races and themes, and see them as medieval Arthurian in a vacuum...

[DivisMal]

Yes, I think I can agree to that...

Obviously, the WHFB setting was created so every single fantasy and historical trope could be shoehorned in there.

Perhaps you remember the Albion campaign from back in the day? An addition to the WHFB world with Celtic flavour, or the Norse, who are vikings in disguise, and then Ancient Egyptianesque Khemri, Italian city states with their mercenaries, which contained a unit of Ancient Greek(ish) pikemen; the list of (perceived) anachronisms goes on and on. And that's just the human factions!

But at the heart of the Bretonnian background lies an undeniably Arthurian flavour. Of course later on, this has been watered down in some places and exaggerated in others, to better fit the faction with in the WHFB world as a whole (because Bretonnians were just too shiny, bright, optimistic and hopeful goodie-two-shoes until then).

And back in the day, the Empire was not as technologically advanced as it was when the world exploded; a lot less guns and cannons, more crossbows and pikes, warwagons instead of steamtanks and a lot less fluffy sleeves. Oh; and if I recall correctly, Bretonnians had (siege) cannons too!

Bretonnia was set in the WHFB world, yes, but fluffwise, its inhabitants rarely, if ever, ventured outside of their own realm. Their only contact with the outside was with the Woodelves of Lorien, right nextdoor. And even that contact was very limited (many knights disappeared if they ventured too deep in the woods).

So I've always imagined that Kingdom on its own, as if it were set on an island so to speak... But of course, to enjoy an actual game of WHFB, you need opponents, and those would usually not be Bretonnians, so then we have medieval Arthurians fighting Moorcockian Chaos warriors, or (very roughly) Tolkien based Orcs. And I agree that this detracts from the whole Arthurian theme.

But only on the tabletop! Fluffwise, I think the theme still stands as solidly as it ever has. Therefore, when thinking about Bretonnians, I prefer to simply ignore all the other scraped together races and themes, and see them as medieval Arthurian in a vacuum...

Yes, that’s very true.

By itself, the Bretonnians would work very well with Wood Elves (Fae), Norse (as Fantasy Vikings, not as part of a Moorcock Chaos army) and especially set on the island of Albion!

It actually works better now in the AoS setting to imagine such a reality as another dimension than back in the days of the Old World.
And also very true: the Empire started as a slightly advanced late medieval/early renaissance army. Landsknechts maybe, but no Steampunk. That’s why the old slann with their sci-fi/ufo touch worked so well, bringing something into the setting that was as strange as the realms of chaos!

But after all, GW needed to sell minis and make the setting playab, and they succeed by taking into account successively more anachronisms.

Back to topic: Maybe, what we all dream about is something like a romantic approach to tabletop wargaming? Something where knights are still super-cool and women in ponds handing out weapons or the odd fae or giant are considered fantastic (and not bor)?

[Daeothar]

Yup; that's exactly it I think. Especially people of 'our' generation and older will remember the classic imagery of knights in shiny armour, and towering hilltop castles with snapping, colourful banners. And that's also exactly what nic-e originally meant I think.

The Pre-Raphaelites (re?)-introduced those images, and fueled the neo-gothic and romantic periods of the late 19th century. And with two world wars inbetween, I think the public image of both Arthurian legends and the medieval period never evolved much from that 19th century vision.

So that's where the films and other media we got to know as kids were rooted. So from the fifties on, the Ivanhoe, Robin Hood, El Cid, Arthurian and many more films were modeled after that 19th century fantasy, and evolving scientific knowledge be damned.

Following that, many more recent artists were in their turn influenced by these movies and produced books, comics, TV-series and more movies along the same path (even though there have been some meagre years for the genre, as swords were out of vogue for at least a couple of decades). Only in the eighties interest started to grow again, and then the more grim, down and dirty visions became more prevalent.

Along with that current, RPG and fantasy miniature battle games developed. So they inevitably absorbed many of those ideas, and the bright and shiny knights were sidelined and considered quaint or even 'kids stuff'. On top of that, new insights in the medival world became commonplace, replacing the old romantic black and white imagery with more realistic greytones.

All that research slowly trickled down towards the public, and people learned that Arthur was not a medieval king, but a Romano-British chieftain for instance, and many other old assumptions about the medieval period were toppled and replaced with more realistic images, supported by both historical and archeological evidence.

Which killed the romantic image once held about knights (and also Arthur of course). But we (40+ old guys) have seen that change happen; we grew up with Ivanhoe and now we're wondering where that imagery has gone.

Like I said; Bretonnians carried that torch for me for quite some time, but I woudl certainly not be opposed to any initiative to rekindle it. It will be just a different type of fantasy wargaming of course, but one that will probably be quite interesting for anyone remembering the olden days...

[Hobgoblin]

All that research slowly trickled down towards the public, and people learned that Arthur was not a medieval king, but a Romano-British chieftain for instance, and many other old assumptions about the medieval period were toppled and replaced with more realistic images, supported by both historical and archeological evidence.

If he ever existed, that is!

There clearly were Romano-British chieftains who defeated the Angles and Saxons (for a while) - and Gildas tells us that Ambrosius Aurelianus was their leader. But there isn't really any evidence for a historical Arthur.

There's a strong argument that Arthur was most likely a mythical hero or demigod who then had historical battles assigned to him (as did Finn MacCool in Ireland). That would explain the earliest reference (in Y Goddodin): "He fed the ravens before the battlements; yet he was no Arthur" (a mythical hero would provide a poet with a natural benchmark for a real one.

And it also helps to explain why Arthur crops up all over the place in subsequent accounts - fighting battles that no one man could actually have fought. I think this "historicising" approach is the most convincing.

[Cubs]

Much like Robin Hood or any sort of legendary magnet for tagging age old mythical adventures or themes onto. What's in a name, eh?