old oldschool fatasy? A gap in the market, or a forgotten relic?

[Hobgoblin]

Exactly. It's the same sort of phenomenon as telling a story and adding local geography to make it relevant to your audience. Or, if you're a king, tracing your lineage to Woden or whoever. You slot the stories into a familiar context - or slot familiar characters into the stories.

[Severian]

Exactly. It's the same sort of phenomenon as telling a story and adding local geography to make it relevant to your audience. Or, if you're a king, tracing your lineage to Woden or whoever. You slot the stories into a familiar context - or slot familiar characters into the stories.

You could certainly construct a chronology of Arthuriana over the past 200 years that would illustrate exactly this point, going from Tennyson onwards. I suspect each generation gets the "historical" King Arthur we expect (or deserve!)... But it would be nice to think that, somewhere, there's a grain of historical fact inside the figure around whom all these later mythical, folkloric and legendary accretions have grown, like a pearl in an oyster (to use an obvious and rather pretentious metaphor). Certainly the late John Morris went to great lengths to try and find one, with decidedly mixed results...

I think we'd like to think there was some sort of historical or factual anchor for these mythical figures, something that hints that it's part of experienced reality, somewhere and somewhen, not "just a story (or fable)" (whatever that may mean). Not that I'm holding my breath that one will turn up, mind you; certainly the evidence is pretty thin.

Anyway. The classic knight-in-armour and all that forest of Broceliande stuff remains a happy hunting ground for the imagination, I think. My eldest son, who is seven, is very fond of various mid-century sub-Malory retellings (called things like King Arthur and his Knights) that were old when I first had them as a boy in the 70s. So knights in mail and plate tend to crop up in our sporadic family RPGs as a matter of course.

I have piles of 28mm Dark Age Romano-Britons as well, bought (and painted!) when Dux Britanniarum came out, but that's in large part because I think the sub-Roman period (in Britain and elsewhere) a thoroughly fascinating one. I wouldn't use them for a proper "Arthurian" setting. Somehow questing cataphracts don't really have the same appeal...

[Inkpaduta]

I think one of the key motivators for change were the Arthur books written by Bernard Cornwell that focused more on the Dark Ages and Welsh background.
This is what spurred on the Arthurian period in wargaming. Got me into it, although I grew up with the 1950's type Arthur. Now, with Songs of Arthur and Merlin rules I am rediscovering the fun of the High Medieval fantasy that is King Arthur.

[Diablo Jon]

I'm biased, because I've played Pendragon and it continues to have a big influence on my weekly RPG's. So, in a manner, this kind of oldschool fantasy without the fantasy 'races' but with lots of mysticism and faerie is very much alive for me.

But since we are on a miniatures forum, my question would be, how would you bring this aesthetic and especially the mental feeling on to a gaming table? Does it need a game & figures of its own, or has it got more to do with a certain state of mind, a willingness to play with that? Miniature battle games - and combat oriented RPG's too - usually focus on the combat. And things become practical and dark. And you start to think of game design and how you can fit in factions/races that fight differently and fight interestingly. For me, this kind of thinking always kills the Arthurian aesthetic, the magic of faerie.

Then people keep mentioning WHFB 4/5th ed Bretonnia. Although it's in a battle game of Tolkienesque and darkening fantasy, people still read the figures and the rules as referring to the fantastic Arthurian. So the Arthurian definitely is there, if only you want it to be there?

I think you make a valid point. A lot of the fantasy in an Arthurian type setting is very subtle and more on the periphery when it comes to actual big battle wargames what you end up with is two medieval style armies and a game that doesn't feel overly fantastic. There might be a wizard/druid or odd magic sword but really, in the absence or Orcs, Dwarves or Elves, you just end up with a game that looks like a War of the Roses battle.

You could possibly get more out of the setting in a skirmish style game like Songs of Blades or as you point out a RPG but big battle games will struggle to get the genre across I think.

 

[Patrice]

Very interesting thread!

I suspect each generation gets the "historical" King Arthur we expect (or deserve!)...

Yes certainly. And this list could start with Chrétien de Troyes who describes Arthurian armours and society as if it were in his own lifetime in the 12th century. I like some Arthurian films with knights in full plate armour (Excalibur), and I strongly dislike some others. But in fact I prefer to imagine these warriors in the historical sub-Roman context where the legend comes from.
(...Perhaps I'm biased, being interested in Breton history).

A French comics of the 1980s-1990s "Les Héros cavaliers" took this point of view.

I think the sub-Roman period (in Britain and elsewhere) a thoroughly fascinating one. I wouldn't use them for a proper "Arthurian" setting. Somehow questing cataphracts don't really have the same appeal...

We run an "Arthurian" skirmish campaign (RPG-minded) with my gaming group, it takes place in sub-Roman Britain, the context is historical... but with some very light magic abilities allowed to priests or bards... and sometimes some creature hidden in a dark corner. 

[DivisMal]

Well, you guys got me going through my old Demonworld stuff and starting to paint up some knights.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108985.msg1364643#msg1364643

The idea of this little project will be a skirmish set based on Song of Arthur and Merlin featuring a handful of knights, all individuals, fighting each other and giants and fae in some romantically blurred northwest-European island.