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Author Topic: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's  (Read 734 times)

Offline Terry37

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Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« on: May 08, 2018, 12:33:52 AM »
I am wanting to do the Dutch grenadier regiment Ram, #28, who wore gray coats faced yellow. However I have been able to find any reference for the button colors worn by Dutch regiments at this time. I am also assuming that the cap plate on their grenadier cap would match the button color, but that is only a guess????

Any help is appreciated.

Terry
"My heart has joined the thousand for a friend stopped running today." - Richard Adams

Offline WFGamers

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 09:36:43 AM »
Terry,


Where have you found the name and type of regiment? I strongly suspect your problem is that you have the wrong name/details.

Grenadier regiments are extremely rare in the 1690's and AFAIK the Dutch had none. Neither are regiments usually numbered at this time.

Finally I have searched and I can't find a unit called 'Ram'. Following a hunch the nearest I can find is the regiment usually known as 'Hagedoorn' at this time. The full name of the commander of this regiment is Francois de Raum or Ram, Heer van Hagedoorn so it might be listed as 'Ram'.

If so this unit is NOT a grenadier regiment but just a normal line unit with a small number of grenadiers - usually 1 or 2 figures in a gaming unit.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 09:48:23 AM by WFGamers »

Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2018, 02:56:06 PM »
Thanks for the reply WF Gamers. My source is an old publication "From Pike to Shot 1685-1720" by Charles Stewart Grant, 1986, page 129. I know it's dated, but seems to be pretty reliable as I've not found much else. There is a set of two books by Partizan Press on the WSS, but they are also by Grant and seem to be an updated extension of the first book which I also have.

Now the kicker is, the chart I took the info from is for the period of 1700 forward and lists the commanders as Ram, Hertaing, Blanche Van Lennep and Van Dorth. In the remarks section Grant states in both books that this was a grenadier regiment until 1709. There is very limited uniform info for the 1690-1700 period for the Dutch, and I hate to guess so lacking detailed info I was going with the 1700+ info.

Lacking additional sources I am still not sure about Dutch button colors, and if the grenadier plates were all one color, brass, or if they matched the buttons. I have the Knotel plate Band XVI No. 1, the Dutch infantry regiments de St. Amand and v. Friesheim. They are shown wearing a mid gray coat with mid-blue cuffs vests, breeches and stockings. The plate also shows a grenadier with a brass front plate, but the coat buttons are also brass. So this does not tell me if the grenadier front plate matches the button color or if they were all brass. But then I can't seem to find a listing of button colors for the various regiments either.

So this is my dilemma!

Terry

Offline WFGamers

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2018, 03:59:59 PM »
Terry,

The Grant 'From Pike to Shot' book is fine but now a bit dated. You are right the Partizan books are updated versions of these with little new.

The best source around are the series of books by Hall and associates. They are expensive but the best you can get - you can get a book or a CD version. I think you are in the US so On Military Matters has them and maybe others (I am in the UK so not sure) - http://onmilitarymatters.com/pages/dfcatalog.php?period=1710. The books are from the Pike and Shot society who also publish them - http://www.pikeandshotsociety.org/.

OK so back to the unit, this is the unit I suggested. Ram van Hagedoorn was colonel from 1680. Then Hertaing (also sometimes called Van Marquette) from 1692 and then Pallandt from 1699. Pallandt was a senior commander so often the unit was commanded by subordinates - Van Lennep in 1704 and Van Dorth in 1705.

This unit is sometimes said to be a grenadier unit from Pallandt's time but this is almost certainly wrong. In 1703 for example the unit got 600 ordinary hats and 120 grenadier caps. It did become a grenadier regiment in 1731 and might have earlier but there is no evidence for this. So in the 1690's it would certainly be a normal line unit. It might have become a grenadier unit after 1703 but that would be very unusual and there is no evidence they did. They were grenadiers from 1731 for certain.

OK on the grenadier hats and buttons this varied a lot  and from unit to unit. Also often we just don't know. The Hall book/CD will tell you what there is to know. This work does have details on this unit and what the grenadiers looked like in 1719. In 1719 the cap is black with mainly yellow decorations on it. It has the multi colour coat of arms from the corner of the flag on the front, flanked with yellow lions. The cap is edged in yellow with a yellow tassel & some yellow writing below the coat of arms. Also mainly yellow 'swirls' on the bottom of the back of the cap.

It is not known if this was worn earlier but it is probably the best guess you will get.


Nick

Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2018, 03:53:44 AM »
Nick, thanks for the additional info. I will have to see about the references you list. I am happy to know it was NOT a grenadier regiment after all. I was wanting to do them due to their gray coats with yellow facings, and now I can, only as a line regiment.

Another question for you - when did the French start wearing their hats as a tricorn?  Best I've been able to find is around 1700, but hopefully it was before that time????

Thanks again, GREAT info!

Terry

Offline WFGamers

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2018, 10:04:59 AM »
Terry,


OK on the grenadier regiment :)

On the tricorn I don't that you can find a definitive date for the switch to tricorns for any nation. The 1700 date is chosen as a 'rule of thumb' date. It is clear that after this date some units continued to use 'floppy' hats for at least some time, often quite a few years, afterwards. Also it is likely that many tricorns once hit with rain, mud and generally use in the field would 'flop' and cease to be a tricorn.

It is possible, and indeed likely, that tricorns were used before 1700, if only because how the 'floppy' hat was worn was up to the individual so some would have. Unfortunately this also means that whole units wearing tricorns are unlikely, but notice that is 'unlikely' and not 'impossible'. While whole 'armies' in tricorns would be very unlikely but....

Most gamers tend to use tricorns for post 1700 (for the War of Spanish Succession) and 'floppy' hats for pre 1700 (for the War of the League of Augsburg) but perhaps with a few of the other type mixed in. Personally it wouldn't bother me if you used either for both wars but others are more fussy than me. Also a bigger problem will be the pikemen in the unit. The Dutch had pikes in the 1690's and the early part of the WSS. Depending on the figures you are using pikemen in tricorns can be a problem to find.


Nick


Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2018, 05:59:05 PM »
Nick,

You must have some amazing reference material. Thanks for your thoughts re the tricorn. To help you understand where I am coming from - I play HOTT and DBN. I like HOTT for the pre 1700 periods because it allows me to create pike blocks, played as a Behemoth. After 1700 I prefer DBA-HX updated to 2.2 and adding the attrition system from DBN. So, what I am saying is I use very few figures, with an army being around 50-60 figures generally.

But, I am a slow painter and love the organizing, getting the right figure for an element and then painting up all the great uniforms. So even though I do small numbers of figures I still want them to be as accurate as possible, and painted as well as I can. It usually takes me about 3-6 months to do an army, so I normally create about 3 new armies a year.

I asked about the tricorn for the french because I have some art work showing them wearing it in the 1690's time frame. I'd like to do maybe a regiment or two with them just to have a slightly different look. But not if they weren't worn.

Again from the Grant books, he says the Dutch pikemen still wore the cuirass, but the British did not. I am not sure about the French of that time period, but am guessing they still wore it too??? All wore a floppy hat or maybe tricorn (which I can do a head swap if need be), or maybe some of the French still wore a helmet, besides the Swiss Guards.

I am planning three armies for this venture - Anglo/British, French and James II at Boyne.

Thank you very much for all of your help!!!

Terry


Offline WFGamers

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2018, 09:46:23 AM »
Terry,


Yes I am lucky enough to have some good material but most of this comes from the Hall books/CD's I mentioned before. My copy of 'From Pike to Shot' is out on loan but I think the Dutch army has about 10 to 20 pages in that book. The Hall CD/Books on the Dutch has bigger pages and the Dutch one is 526 pages. So obviously it goes into a lot more detail than the Grant book but also bearing in mind what you re doing perhaps not worth the cost to you.

It is also worth saying these CDs/books do not cover the period before 1685 which are covered a little in the Grant book - more on this below. The other thing to mention is that often at this time we simply don't have information on everything, so often we just don't know things.

I see where you are coming from now. I have played HOTT and the original DBA many years ago but not DBN and DBA-HX. Based on what I remember of these I think you would be better off using variants on what I think were called 'Shooters' in HOTT. The units were usually all a mixture of pikes and shot if they had pikes. Not separate blocks of pikes and muskets. So bearing in mind I have no real knowledge of the rules I would have thought they would be 'Shooters' (or some class) with a few pluses/minuses depending on how many pikes they have.

OK on pikemen armour the Hall books don't say much mainly because it has mostly gone by the time period they cover - i.e. the 1690's and later. The Grant book is probably a better guide here but as I remember most infantry armour had gone by the 90's. It was reasonably common in the 1670's and a few used it into the early 80's but by 1690 it was rare. The Swiss Guard in the French army, as you mention, seemed to use it in the early 90's and so did some 'militia' type units. Also some others might have occasionally worn cuirasses, often under their coats. But exact information is difficult to find and as with the tricorns I think most people think that armour had gone by the 90's but maybe......

I liked the DBA idea because of the small army sizes and you have picked some nice armies. I thought it might help if I mentioned what the infantry would be like in these armies. Obviously these things could vary a lot but if you say have a 600 man unit you would have the following breakdown.

Some units would be say 150 to 200 pikes and the rest shot - the English/British and Jacobite Irish units (in theory for the Irish) were like this. Other units would be all shot - the Danes, Hugenots and some Germans were like this. The other common mixture was say 80 to 120 pikes and the rest shot - the French, the Dutch and some Germans were like this. In each case often say 50 to 80 of the 'shot' were grenadiers. The army of James II in Ireland was initially (i.e. at the Boyne) short of muskets and indeed weapons generally. So they often had a lot more pikes than above and indeed often used pitchforks, scythes, etc as well.

I hope this helps.


Nick


Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2018, 08:17:08 PM »
Nick, Everything you've posted has been a tremendous help. I may still pursue the Hall works and am seeking a source. and exact titles, as the study of uniforms has fascinated me for over 60 years now. I do have some of the Hilton and Harrison PDF files which have been helpful, and about half a dozen books that lend themselves to the period. But obviously the Hall works are the best source.

One thing your last reply opened my eyes to, and I think it is because you have some familiarity of HOTT and DBA. That is my approach of using a Behemoth to represent the bulk of the infantry as a pike block. That is way off, and although it works fine for my Renaissance and TYW armies, it is out moded for the 1690's. So I am dropping the pike blocks of Behemoths, and changing them to Spear units comprised of two pike figures and two musket figures. This also allows me to do several more units, while better representing the period.  I'm a real sucker for a uniform if it's colorful!!!

I tend to avoid too many shooter elements in HOTT after giving the AWI a try with regulars being Shooters. Put a couple of them at the edge of some woods and game over because it's near impossible to dislodge them. So it didn't make for a very fun game. Therefore, in my 1690 games I will use Fusiliers as Shooters, or some other similar units.

My very sincere thanks for all of your help!!!

Terry

Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 09:48:20 PM »
Nick, One more thought - I would very much value your suggestion regarding the pikemen for both my French and Dutch. Should they wear the breast and back or better to have them without? Grant indicates yes, but feel your references are more up to date.

Thanks,

Terry

Offline WFGamers

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2018, 11:32:51 AM »
Terry,


Yes I would say the Hall series are clear the best you can get but of course a lot depends on what information you want. The actual books are beautiful and often people collect them just as 'art', but I make do with the CD's.

OK on the Shooters and I am glad it helped. I only vaguely remembered the system, and the name popped up out of nowhere, so I can't remember the details. But it looks like you have sorted things out :)

On the pikes I think without armour is right. For my 1690's French army I think I will do the Swiss Guard in armour as something different (I do large armies) but I haven't done them yet and maybe I won't in the end.

Good luck with the project.

Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 04:49:58 PM »
Hi Nick,

Again, Many thanks for your thoughts and info. Re the Swiss Guards, I did mine in cuirass and helmet as everything I read about them says they were one of the last to give them up. And as you say, it gives a nice change. I used the Knotel plates for my doing the Garde regiments. I have been fortunate enough to acquire about 500 of the original plates over the years, focusing mainly on the wars from 1690 (Of which there are few) through the Napoleonic wars.

This is proving to be a really fun project, and is a period I am very fond of.

Thanks again,

Terry

Offline Terry37

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 05:03:07 PM »
Nick me again. One other question re the Dutch. Grant shows a Dutch Regiment of Horse - Van Reeck, Van Isendoorn, Van Nijvenheim, and Reinhard that wore yellow buff coats faced scarlet. This is the only regiment listed in a yellow buff coat, as the others are predominately shades of gray, and I have to ask if that is correct for this regiment?

Thanks,

Terry

Offline WFGamers

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2018, 05:46:57 PM »
Terry,


I am really jealous of your plates collection, maybe one day I will get something like it.

Yes on the Swiss Guard.

On the Yellow Buff unit there is one which Hall calls Van Oyen (1684), Van Rechteren (1691), Reinhard Van Hoornbergh (1701). This was amalgamated with another unit is 1703 which might have caused confusion along the way with the name. There is also a unit with Van Reede (Ginkel/Athlone) (1665), Isendoorn (Cannenburg) (1703), Nijvenheim (Driesbergen) (1703), Reinhard (Van Reede/Ginkel) (1709). This must be the unit in Grant.

Hall has the 2nd one (Van Reede, etc) in the usual grey with red facing combo. The 1st one though (Van Oyen, etc) has yellow buff and red facing in 1686-87 at least. This unit got grey and red in 1690.

So I guess the yellow buff unit is the Hall one and I would use it for an early war army. I suspect Grant got confused somewhere along the way. Dutch cavalry are a nightmare as the same small  group of families command everything.

Final yes it is a great period, both for the look of it and also gaming it.

Offline julesav

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Re: Dutch Button and Grenadier Cap Plates 1690's
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2018, 10:32:05 AM »
A good few years ago now I obtained a large collection of LoA/WSS figures in a swap with a pal. It contained a mix of floppy hats and tricornes. After a little reading I decided to use the tricorne wearers as predominantly French (Foreign regiments in French service retain floppy hats). My allied units are predominantly the floppy hat figures with occasional tricorne wearing fashionista officers. I chose this approach mainly due to the figure mix but the League of Augsburg forum pages discussions on tricorne adoption convinced me that no-one really know whether my approach was right or wrong!
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