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Author Topic: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?  (Read 3212 times)

Offline Ingmar

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  • Posts: 53
Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« on: May 10, 2018, 02:31:25 PM »
Hi there,

Whilst waiting on the paint of my saga Irish re´nforcements to dry, I dug out my stash of WSS Magazines and stumbled across issue 93, concerning the 80 years war.
A spark of inspiration was struck followed by a couple of days of google fu concerning the miniatures. Stumbling across the news that TAG is about to release a dedicated range of Dutch and Spanish miniatures for the conflict, much excitement was had...

Now I find myself in the planning stages of a new project, but the last time I learned anything about the period was when my primary school teacher tought me dutch national history, which is around 25 years ago!

Any pointer for good information about the conflict, the uniforms, the rules I could use and the basing conventions? Only thing I'm really set on is 28mm miniatures...

Any pointers would be very helpful!

Offline Coenus Scaldingus

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  • Posts: 432
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 05:17:10 PM »
Well, I suppose two questions will have to be answered before delving into this more (not that I'm suggesting I have the expertise to go into much more detail!): what period of the war are you looking for, and concerning rules, how big a game?

For the former, well, you are looking at a period of - believe it or not - some 80 years, so things weren't exactly the same throughout. Early on, you're looking at fancy slashed cloth and equipment not unlike that of typical conquistadores. The late period would instead see wide-brimmed hats and buff coats (for which many suitable figures can also be found in ranges for the English Civil War). Haven't kept track of what TAG is due to release, but I imagine these will be for the (much less well represented) early or mid phase?

In terms of rules, there are ample options for small skirmishes (En Garde), a few dozen figures a side (e.g. Pikeman's Lament) or much larger (Pike&Shotte, and many others).

It's all up to you!

EDIT: Forgot to mention, there are two very recent Ospreys on the topic (whole war, 1 on infantry, 1 on 'the rest'). Haven't read them in any great detail, but always a good introduction, especially for the relevant colours of cloth, sashes, feathers and indeed armour itself. Though you can't seem to go far wrong with 'orange' most of the time.. (aside from the armour, which for much of the period was black).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 06:17:10 PM by Coenus Scaldingus »
~Ad finem temporum~

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 06:56:14 PM »
the Osprey books are better than many of their 16/17th century titles, though as always constrained by space.  Miles better than their awful Imperialist books
"...and as always, we are dealing with strange forces far beyond our comprehension...."

All limitations are self imposed.  Work hard and dream big.

Offline Sparrow

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 08:13:56 PM »
If you can, get a copy of the C16th book by Ian Heath that Foundry published. A mine of information for those, like me, who can only read English text.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 04:45:38 AM by Sparrow »
Put your trust in God and keep your powder dry!

Offline whiskey priest

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 09:08:11 PM »
I second the Ian Heath book but i'd imagine it'd be incredibly hard to get a hold of. The two Osprey's are worth a read as well. There are plenty of books out there that will give you and idea of how the war developed from a large scale. I'd reccomend George Parkers books as they are well written and researched. It's worth looking at books about the French wars of revolution as well as the low level warfare was similar in both. There is a good article on Wikipedia about the Cologne war which was also contigious. As for rules, I've used Donnybrook for lower level stuff but I am building up my forces to use a variant of Sharp Practice that came out in one of the Lardy summer specials, called 'Sharply Buffed'. Their is also Spanish Fury from Perfect Captain which is free and worth reading through for ideas. The battles themselves, in the early war, weren't all that interesting (being fairly one sided in favour of the Spanish) but the real interest is in the low level raids and 'actions' where small forces and local commanders essentially fought their own private wars. So much great stuff in their for wargaming.

Offline Lowtardog

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 09:28:05 PM »
The Heath book is excellent, worth a quick look is the old George Gush articles from Airfix http://warfare2.netai.net/Renaissance/RenaissanceWarfare-AirfixMagazineArticles.htm

Offline Ingmar

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  • Posts: 53
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 08:41:35 AM »
Thanks for all the helpful replies! I hadn't considered the exact period, but that'll be down to what I find in my 2 new Osprey Publications.  :D

I also didn't realised that Pikemen's Lament is the adaptation of Lion Rampant, which I already own. This considered, it seems like a good starting point, as SAGA sized games are my best bet to enter a new gaming system (seeing as I'm a glacial speed painter) and the basing requirements are very unrestrictive, so with a little planning I should be able to paint up a small skirmish sized force and add to that if I'm still up for it.. In theory... ;)

B.t.w. I contacted T.A.G. and was told the new range will start out with early war "Sea Beggars" and skirmish troops this October and then regular dutch troops for the 1590's around May of next year. Which is perfect, considering I have still a lot of planning to do!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 08:51:43 AM by Ingmar »

Offline Coenus Scaldingus

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 10:28:34 AM »
B.t.w. I contacted T.A.G. and was told the new range will start out with early war "Sea Beggars" and skirmish troops this October and then regular dutch troops for the 1590's around May of next year. Which is perfect, considering I have still a lot of planning to do!
And thanks in return for that info! I love it when the companies not only reply, but are happy to share all such information.

Offline Metternich

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  • Posts: 1339
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 09:14:43 PM »
If you want to do the Sea Beggars period, think Elizabethan costume.  The Wargames Foundry "Seadogs and Swashbucklers" range are a good start (obviously steer clear of the longbowmen, meant to portray British troops of that same period).  Also very useful are their late 16th century range (many of which can be used for either Spanish or Dutch troops).

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/seadogs-and-swashbucklers

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610?page=2

Eureka makes some Portuguese Conquistadors which can add to your forces (particularly as umpaid, veteran Spanish troops who, as the campaign raged on, could  become very raggedy - but avoid crossbowmen figures, which would be obsolete by this time), and as sailors for either side; The Spanish Conquistador armored cavalry and petronels are also useful:

https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese

https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con11a

https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con19a

 

Offline henerius

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  • Posts: 49
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 03:27:25 AM »
If you want to do the Sea Beggars period, think Elizabethan costume.  The Wargames Foundry "Seadogs and Swashbucklers" range are a good start (obviously steer clear of the longbowmen, meant to portray British troops of that same period).  Also very useful are their late 16th century range (many of which can be used for either Spanish or Dutch troops).

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/seadogs-and-swashbucklers

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610?page=2

Eureka makes some Portuguese Conquistadors which can add to your forces (particularly as umpaid, veteran Spanish troops who, as the campaign raged on, could  become very raggedy - but avoid crossbowmen figures, which would be obsolete by this time), and as sailors for either side; The Spanish Conquistador armored cavalry and petronels are also useful:

https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese

https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con11a

https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con19a

I agree on the above except for:
unless playing early war better avoid lancers. The first ones probably looked more like knights and the latter ones had pistols instead of lances, because lances could not defeat armour anymore later on in the war.

Early war dutch were a mixed bunch of troop types all together, they were armed by local towns and cities anyway they could afford and provide it (different size weapons, gun calibres, etc.) the Portuguese troops are indeed perfect for that.  Later in the war the armour and weaponry became standardised and production of them as well. Later dutch troops in the war looked definitly more standardised. Thirty Year War troops would be perfect for that.
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/thirty-years-war

Offline Metternich

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  • Posts: 1339
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 05:59:10 PM »
If you want to do Sea Beggars period, then Thirty Years War style of clothing is too late for that (it is suitable for the later phase of the war though, which coincides with the 30 Yrs War) (But Elizabethan dress is fine for the Sea Beggars period - the 1560's and 70's in particular).  Lancers are used during that time frame (in comparatively small numbers) by both the Spanish and Dutch (and their English allies), and would look similar to Elizabethan English demilancers (i.e. probably not armored below the knee; no one would have gendarmes).  German Reiters also make their appearance fighting for the Protestants.  The Osprey Armada book gives a good representation of Spanish troops who would have been in the Netherlands (often more ragged though)  https://i.pinimg.com/236x/23/8f/90/238f90043fdc35b9e35c1e4e9f7b8534--spanish-armada-conquistador.jpg,   https://i.pinimg.com/736x/12/65/cb/1265cb955f651190e47227742923e540--spanish-armada-conquistador.jpg 

and many of the English professional soldiers would have been employed in British allied forces.  https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ae/48/e9/ae48e9d957867a6d06543f2c22711f84--military-history-spanish-armada.jpg



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/97/7a/a9977a14c4518d48815c24b33ab29f1f.jpg

Here's a contemporary picture of the 1568 execution of the counts de Egmont and Hoorn, showing Spanish troops of that time period:

https://c7.alamy.com/compes/f955fj/ochenta-anos-o-la-guerra-de-la-independencia-1568-1648-neerlandes-la-ejecucion-de-los-condes-de-egmond-y-hoorn-bruselas-1568-paises-bajos-grabado-coloreada-f955fj.jpg

Here's a Ron Embleton picture of the death of Sir Philip Sidney at the Battle of Zutphen 1586  (Sidney had led a British expeditionary force to help the Dutch; he was in such a hurry to get into the fight, that he neglected to put on his thigh armor - he was wounded by a musket shot that shattered his thigh, and died 22 days later of infection).  He had with him

http://paintingandframe.com/prints/ron_embleton_sir_philip_sidney_at_the_battle_of_zutphen-588.html 


Offline whiskey priest

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    • the Leadpile
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 09:22:08 PM »
I can also suggest the the HokaHey (ex Monolith) line of Border Reivers might be of some use for the period. I also use the old citadel Estalians (if you can get a hold of them) and GAmezone imperials as Spanish. There is also the Arsenal/Warlord Wars of Religion line.

Offline cdr

  • scientist
  • Posts: 292
Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 10:26:56 AM »
in the 80 years war you'll find more or less everything.
in the 1570's you can have Scottish cavalry (armed in the fashion of their country so border reivers ? )
a polish guard for Archduke Matthias, lots of Gendarmes (both French (the invasion of the Duke of Anjou) and local gendarmes (the Burgundian Compagnies d'ordonnance were active until the 1590's)

Local gendarmes were active both on the royal (even when present Spanish forces forced only a small part of the army) and the rebel (not all the rebels were Dutch)


Carl

Offline Pijlie

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2018, 08:18:59 PM »
You could do worse than visit our 80-years War Facebook page made for our Dutch Miniatures Wargame Event last year.

A lot of it is in Dutch (obviously) bu Facebook translates reasonably well and the pictures are quite inspirational if I say so myself  :D

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1814563208780624/
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Offline nikephorous

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Re: Dutch - 80 years war - Where to start?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2018, 11:37:37 PM »
You could do worse than visit our 80-years War Facebook page made for our Dutch Miniatures Wargame Event last year.

A lot of it is in Dutch (obviously) bu Facebook translates reasonably well and the pictures are quite inspirational if I say so myself  :D

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1814563208780624/

I second this for sure.

Bouko regularly posts a "Friday Flag" with a little history on the unit. Excellent links, conversation and information on this excellent site.

Marjolein T'Hart's fabulous book on the Dutch Wars of Independence is a fascinating read. If you are lucky your library will have a copy:

https://www.bookdepository.com/Dutch-Wars-Independence-Marjolein-THart/9780582209671

I have gone a little later with my Dutch project - i.e. the 1630s to tie in with our group's ECW/TYW project for Baroque. Being able to use the available TYW ranges of figures has meant I have no excuses to impede progress (but am working on a few) :-)

As well as TAG you might want to have a look at Tercios Miniatures for some of the specialty figures. They have a beautiful selection of personalities:

https://terciosminiatures.com


Good luck with the project!

John
Who decided a 6 was good and a 1 bad anyway?