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Author Topic: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 21st June  (Read 5001 times)

Offline Irregular Wars Nic

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2018, 02:07:30 PM »
Lovely job on those!

Offline Metternich

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2018, 03:57:07 PM »
The helmet worn by the Irish kern in pack WR 44 is straight out of Albrecht Durer's print of Irish troops (gallowglass and kerns); the full bascinet style worn by the other helmeted figure was still being used in Ireland after 1500 (one of those was found at the site of the battle of Knockdoe, 1510, and is believed to be from that battle).   Totally suitable for early Tudor period:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f0/2f/03/f02f0324b4b35b4e359864deaa821258.jpg


Offline Arlequín

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2018, 11:09:50 PM »
Looking at these illustrations;


C. 1399


Apparently 16th Century

... not much seems to have changed over two centuries. I do note the overhand grip on the spear, as opposed to a couched lance.

The following is also the Irish slant on a 16th Century knight


Offline aphillathehun

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2018, 11:14:24 PM »

Looks like the bottom one has painterman's dog right!

Offline Metternich

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2018, 04:54:12 PM »
That's what's so great about figures of Kern and Gallowglass.  Most can be used 1320 to 1550 or so.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2018, 08:07:33 PM »
I do have a nagging doubt that some illustrators might have very much done what some of us do and apply an impression of something they've never seen, based on a picture they've seen somewhere.

So say I'm sat there in 1500, wondering how to paint an Irishman and I turn to a 200 year old illustration for inspiration and essentially copy it. Joe Wargamer sees it half a millennia later and takes it as read that nothing changed in Ireland for a couple of hundred years.

When you look at illustrations from the 1580s though it's all changed and Irish nobles are dedicated followers of fashion. The Kerns of course look little different however. 

Illustrations are all we have of course and legislation such as 'all men in the Pale are to dress in English clothes' and things like that. I'll be an avid follower of the herd and gush over the Perry's stuff, but deep down rational me is sniffing an age old con.

 ;)

Offline Metternich

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2018, 08:29:37 PM »
To further complicate the discussion, below is an excerpt from an article on the website for the magazine, History Ireland, issue Jan/Feb 2006, re the Chester Beatty exhibition of Durer's work:

Irish history buffs will most likely make a beeline for the watercolour of ‘Irish Soldiers and Peasants’ lent by the Kuperferstichkabinett Staatliche Museen, Berlin, on show in Ireland for the first time. This image is dated 1521 and is therefore thought to have been executed in Antwerp, which Dürer visited that year. It is the earliest representation of Irish dress and as such is frequently used in books as a depiction of Irish soldiers.
However, there is now a question mark over the latter claim. Jean Michel Massing raised the matter in the Irish Arts Review in 1994. Antwerp was a great entrepôt trading city and it would certainly have been the place, if anywhere, to have encountered such outlandish people as the Irish and others whom Dürer placed in his album of peoples in costume. The problem is that the blokes with moustaches have only two authentic Irish items—a ring-hilted great sword favoured by Irish gallowglasses held by the second from the left, and the Irish mantle worn by the third from the left. Such swords were actually made in Germany for export, whilst Irish mantles—a sort of poor man’s fur coat, known for its warmth—were imported onto the Continent. So it is quite possible that these items were available in Antwerp—indeed, the city was known for its processions of citizens dressed up as foreigners at festival time!
The clincher would seem to be the legend on the watercolour. It does not actually say that these are Irish soldiers and peasants. It states more enigmatically: ‘Thus go the soldiers of Ireland beyond England/Thus go the poor of Ireland’. Furthermore, as Massing also reminded us, it was Dürer who used a blond German youth dressed in feathers to represent an Amerindian in a Book of Hours for the emperor!
Finally, it ought to be noted that this image of Irish soldiers was not put into print circulation by Dürer contemporaneously and hence it never affected the developing Renaissance image of the Irish. It only came into general circulation when scholarly interest in Dürer developed in the late nineteenth century and his albums of drawings were finally published.

Offline Driscoles

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2018, 06:47:01 AM »
This fits all so perfectly together, painting, base and multibase composition!
Just brill!
, ,

Offline Rogerc

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2018, 02:43:15 PM »
Excellent stuff, I will also be using these figures (mixed with some Claymore Islemen) as Irish to fight my Tudor English, thinking Pikemans Lament which is the later version of Lion Rampant.
+
My blog gapagnw.blogspot.co.uk

Offline AngusH

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2018, 09:22:52 AM »
Not a period I know much about, but those are some lovely minis from the Perry brothers.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2018, 11:50:36 AM »
‘Thus go the soldiers of Ireland beyond England/Thus go the poor of Ireland’.

... which will pretty much be my mindset when I eventually get round to getting them. They fulfil my expectation of what Irish troops should look like in the Late 15th Century at least.

 :)

Not a period I know much about, but those are some lovely minis from the Perry brothers.

Certainly are. I'd like to see their take on Welsh, or even Lowland Scots troops too. They wouldn't perhaps look that different from the English at such a late date, but there would be differences all the same.

Just don't ask me what they would be.  :?

Offline rivers3162

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2018, 02:00:59 PM »
Excellent stuff, I will also be using these figures (mixed with some Claymore Islemen) as Irish to fight my Tudor English, thinking Pikemans Lament which is the later version of Lion Rampant.

I have done the same thing. The Claymore range is a touch smaller and more slight than the Perry Irish but not completely incompatible.

Offline Rogerc

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2018, 04:19:21 PM »
Just in relation to the earlier discussion on cavalry these pictures in mail show what Osprey refers to as Anglo Irish lords. The Gaelic Irish are dressed in segmented leather helmets and either padded Aketons or mail, bare legged or trews. They use the spear overarm as they dont have stirrups or a proper saddle. For the most part I see Irish horse as light horse skirmishing with javelins. The only company I know that do them are Redoubt Enterprises who have about 4 figures, they are not the best but are OK.

Offline Rogerc

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2018, 05:37:18 PM »
Hoping these images help.
First is a Tudor woodcut showing Irish light horse being charged by English border horse. Bare legs, segmented armour and helmets, no stirrups or proper saddle, spear overarm.
IMG_20180620_172543 by Roger Castle, on Flickr
Ths osprey shows an Irish lord in the same gear.
IMG_20180620_172402 by Roger Castle, on Flickr
The osprey again with the armoured men at arms being Anglo Irish and the irish horse being segmented helmet and chain mail, no stirrups again.
IMG_20180620_172402 by Roger Castle, on Flickr
Lastl jerry embleton warrior series very similar to above, bare legged no stirrups but the segmented helmet is steel, not sure I buy that personally but hopefully some of that helps.
IMG_20180620_172336 by Roger Castle, on Flickr

You would almost want dark age scots or irish horse with later medieval head swaps?

Offline Rogerc

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Re: Medieval Irish (Perry 28mm) - UPDATED 11 June
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2018, 05:39:13 PM »
Apologies missed off the lord hes the guy on right in segmented padded armour.

IMG_20180620_172416 by Roger Castle, on Flickr