Experiments with rubble

[Rich H]

Trying out larger bits of rubble over a core of foam.
Held down with copious amounts of thin CA.

[OSHIROmodels]

Very effective 

[FifteensAway]

Very effective - and I studied in rather carefully and saw that you included small bits of white within all the darker colors of rubble.  However, somehow, my eye still wants to see more white in the rubble matching to the walls, not too much, just more, if you get what I mean.  And the inside is awfully clean - have the locals already gotten to work ready for rebuilding, perhaps?  Just thoughts - provoked by fine modeling work.

[Rich H]

Perhaps it's the insides shove led out the windows?

I do see what you mean, it doesn't belong to the building.
I did try adding some white but it stands out too much.

The interior I'm undecided what to do, I'm thinking a partial first floor remaining in place and some having collapsed. 

The interior of the original is fairly clear:

[Rich H]

Perhaps if I added a couple of larger bits like the broken outer pillars to the rubble would help.
Looking again there is no sign of the roof on any of them so I assume that it's been cleared.

[Dr. Zombie]

I am definately following this.

I have just recently started my own experiments with rubble. I find the tricky bit is to firstly get the mix of colours right and then the mix of materials and sizes.

I have not even begun to think about how to glue it all down. I am making the bulk of my rubble from decorative treebark that I colour. Like in this picture. I need to add more regular shapes of stone and other more recognisable bits of building. This is all just quickly scattered about for a quick spontaneous game.

[Mick_in_Switzerland]

I think that the inside walls are too clean and the inside is too tidy.

I imagine that bombed out buildings would have blackenned inside walls and also a considerable amount of rubble on the floor where the roof and upper floor have caved in.

[Dr. Zombie]

Rubble is actually more tricky than it would seem. You have to strike some form of compromise between realistic rubble and playable rubble. Realistically when a building is bombed. There is a lot of rubble as in A LOT! But It would make placing figures very difficult.

[Mick_in_Switzerland]

I am interested in how this thread develops as I have an MDF kit for a bombed out factory to build soon.

[Rich H]

The odd thing is the interior of the building it's based on is clear and tidy.  There is no burning in evidence but I do intend to soot it up at bit. 

I'm wondering if it was more a near miss that took the roof off and wall down than direct bomb damage.  The building right next to it has no roof either but there are no bits of roof in evidence. 

The buildings have almost certinaly been cleared afterwards.  I think the rubble piled up was an attempt to fortify this building, there is no point othrwise.  It's built up to the level of th elower windows and the top had already fallen off so it's a good positoin.  It also looks out directly across the open areas of the fountain and 'park' (Dirty grass and treestumps)

[Silent Invader]

I encountered the rubble problem when I put together my Belgium 1914 tiles. There’s lots of right and wrong ways to do it but I settled on a playable approach that worked for me. Lots of pics here:

https://www.silentinvader.uk/index_w_taf_index_terrain.html

[Daeothar]

Yes; rubble is often overlooked when creating damaged buildings. And let's be clear; no matter what period or type of game you play, there WILL be ruins and damaged buildings. We're playing WARgames after all. War begets rubble, that's just an undisputed fact.

So I can only applaud the experiment; I feel the amount of rubble on the outside is sufficient, but I have to echo the sentiments that it does not look like it came from this particular building.

Also, the interior of a building is rarely a single space, and I'd say different wallpapers or even just different paint colours would already help in creating the kind of bombed out, chaotic look that all buildings have when they're suddenly turned inside out.

Remains of stairs, furniture etc all would help in establishing the way entropy took a dump on a building, without going overboard.

I think most rubble would fall inside a building, once it's bombed out, especially if a building is large and/or high. You know; gravity, shortest path down etc. (obviously that's not taking the kinetic energy from an explosive force into account). Creating heaps of rubble in the corners, leaving the center and longer walls free would work to represent that.


For Dropzone Commander, I've been thinking about this a lot; in-game a building can be destroyed, and these near-skyscraper type buildings collapse in on themselves. Now, they have this card terrain they provide with the starter set, and that gave me the idea of putting a ruin under the shell of a building so when it is destroyed, you lift off the shell, leaving the ruin underneath. And I've seen this being done quite well.

But that completely foregoes the presence of rubble on the outside of the buildings. So I'm planning on making rubble terrain for each ruin, on the outside, that can be stored inside the complete building when it's still standing. I was even thinking of hinging the rubble piles from the ruined base of the building, so when the complete building is removed (i.e pulled off of the ruined base), the side rubble would swivel down the sides; instant ruined building.

Because I feel that the amount of rubble should at least represent the mass of the building when it was still standing.

But of course, that game being in 10mm, glossing over the minute detail of the rubble is easier than when working on a 28mm project...

[Rich H]

Thanks

This is a very specific building, the interior has been cleared out already looking at the pics (no floors or roof in evidence) and the rubble outside doesn't neccesarily come just from this building, but I'll see about adding some more white adn grey to it. 

[Silent Invader]

If it’s been cleared and piled Rob, then the rubble’s predominant colour is likely to be that of the brick dust. Slabs of white rendered wall would just break up with the white being lost under the dust. Yours clearly is not a freshly damaged site but one that shows signs of being managed to facilitate continuing use. With that in mind I’d say your portrayal is on the mark.

[Brandlin]

A few things to consider.

Gravity! Most rubble is generated when things collapse. They fall because supports are weakened or destroyed. the amount of rubble that is 'blown out' by the force of the explosion is tiny compared to the resulting collapse. rubble falls downwards.

Buildings collapse inwards. Buildings are secured together - floor beams, roof joists, etc. Also the main supported mass is the roof (especially in european buildings with clay, concrete or slate tile). This means that when the structure is damaged most of this rubble falls inwards into the building not outwards. Wall rubble falls close to walls and especially builds up in corners. Floors and roof structures collapse across the internal space.

Rubble is not all individual brick/tile. When you collapse a wall chunks of it stay together, it doesn't all become single bricks. Its often possible to see recognisable and sizeable chunks of wall still mortared together, often collapsed onto the top of piles of rubble and jutting at odd angles. In addition things like steel frames and wooden beams when bombed don't shatter into tiny pieces, they tend to stay intact. Collapsing forces and possible fire may bend and warp steel, wood may char but in general these long items stay together and are recognisable - often jutting at odd angles from the remaining standing structure.  Things like window frames are also quite chunky lumps of wood and tend to stay broadly together, usually with shards of glass still in them. Things run through walls, electircal wires and plumbing can often be enough to prevent a wall falling or a roof section collapsing leaving things hanging or leaning at precarious angles. You can also see pipes and cables hanging and jutting out of whats left of the structure. There's a lot in a building that isn't brick.

Buildings are not empty. Built-in items like boilers, furnaces, bathtubs, cast iron stoves are all significant objects and dont get vapourised, they remain. Other things like furniture are also tougher than you think and would add to your volume of rubble significantly. If your building was a factory... where are all the machines?

Things collapse in order.  Roof tiles fall on top of roof beams on top of furniture on top of floor beams and walls. A rubble pile would be built up in this way. Often wholeportions of roof structure would collapse as say a single wall gives way but would remain held together.

Civil forces make things safe. One of the first things a community does in a building collapse is to make the structure as safe as practicable. Rescue forces would be in the building and would not want things falling on them. People picking over the rubble to get their possessions need to do so without being flattened. First task of any clear up is to drop any structure that may be liable to fall. Machinery, even ropes and horses are used to pull down any remaining fall risks. This is often why photographs of bombed out buildings have no roof at all - its not the bomb that's blown it off, its the civilians pulling it down afterwards. In these instances most of the wall rubble is on the outside of the building but the rooves still tend to fall inwards. The remainder of a building would be cannibalised for parts... things like steel girders, large oak beams are valuable and reusable and would be recovered in time. Eventually bull dozers would remove the brick and concrete which is useful for road bases and foundations etc. Getting to all of this stuff means shifting rubble and makign a safe working space. So yes, rubble does tend to get piled up with working spaces between. Depending on how long after the bombing your model is, would determine what remains.

Water water everywhere modern(ish) buildings tend to have piped water supply. building collapses and the water flows everywhere. Sure it gets shut off at a convenient main pipe by the civil forces, but that can be hours later. You often found that bomb sites were burning but also stood in puddles of water.

None of this really matters for our purposes you are modeling a playable wargames terrain item not making a hyper realistic model. This is why bombed out model buildings often have partial floors remaining (so you can put figures on them) but really... in danger of your life would you look at the bombed out corner of a building and say "Hey i bet those floorboards would support me and my platoon of men plus all our equipment... lets find some ladders!" Likewise bombed out buildings don't have neat piles of rubble with lovely flat surfaces swept clean between them. Is this some kind of civil defence force with industrial vacuums whose sole job is to "Clear an immaculate path for our resistance boys between all areas of heavy cover". A figure base (25mm) necessitates flat level surfaces which you simply don't get in the chaos of a bombed out building.  As always realism and prcaticality do not always make good bedfellows.