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Author Topic: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges  (Read 6972 times)

Offline Harry von Fleischmann

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2018, 10:21:14 AM »
This will look like a typical WOTR retinue or are you adding anything to indicate Welshness? As these are retainers not levies, I presume not? I’m curious as I’ve had similar ideas in the past.

Offline Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2018, 10:25:32 AM »
This will look like a typical WOTR retinue or are you adding anything to indicate Welshness? As these are retainers not levies, I presume not? I’m curious as I’ve had similar ideas in the past.

I'm thinking more lightly armoured archers and foot men at arms with bills, and fewer heavily armoured knights foot and mounted. Other than that … pretty standard sort of retinue.   
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Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2018, 02:43:51 PM »
If it's of any help, for service in France in 1493, Sir Walter Herbert raised; one man at arms (himself), along with his custrell (lesser man at arms) and page, twenty-four demi-lances, twenty mounted and forty foot archers, and forty billes on foot. This was a wholly volunteer body recruited in addition to Herbert's own household and retainers (which was what I couldn't say with complete certainty). 

What is special here, is that out of all similar records of the same 'cohort' of retinues, only Herbert's and a few others have a significant number of billmen relative to the numbers of archers (3:2, 3:1 ish mostly), the rest have them in ratios like 10:1 or less, or some even have none at all.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 02:50:36 PM by Arlequín »

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2018, 05:09:47 PM »
And isn't there reference to 'Welsh bills' somewhere?

Should we assume Welsh contingents would be more likely to have notable numbers of billmen, rather than just archers and men-at-arms?

Also, what do you think the difference is between a 'custrell' and a 'demi-lancer'? I'd read both of them as 'lesser men at arms'.... Armour and horse, capable of fighting as both heavy infantry and cavalry, but not as fully kitted out as a 'true' man-at-arms.

Offline Harry von Fleischmann

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2018, 05:34:29 PM »
I’m curious at the higher proportion of bill armed welsh. Does this reflect some kind of a shift away from the long bow post Glyndwr? Some form of disarmament policy? So that when welsh troops were needed, there wasn’t the pool of trained archers to draw on?

Idle thoughts of someone with little real knowledge.

I’ve also found I have a few spare figures and may follow Cubs’ lead here - where is that Rhys ap Thomas flag available from?

Offline Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2018, 06:26:29 PM »
I don't know if the 'Welsh' bill was more common in Wales, or if it just acquired the name somehow, but I think it was basically a pole arm with more snaggy-looking spikes and hooks rather than the heavy cutting blade. I guess it was more effective against mounted men, which would be handy if we assume that Welsh retinues had fewer mounted knights and armoured men at arms.

Which kind of leads me to the 'additional billmen' thing. The way I read it, the billmen were there in lieu of better trained or equipped fighting men. So they're not replacing archers so much as they're replacing plate armoured men at arms or mounted knights. I've always regarded billmen (perhaps wrongly) as largely being made up of farmers, smiths and woodsmen who would be comfortable and effective with a big chopping tool, but who aren't trained fighters as such.

Offline Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2018, 06:31:08 PM »
Here we go, a Welsh bill.


Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2018, 06:34:32 PM »
My (entirely fanciful) WoTR Welsh contribution from a few years back...  :)

Doesn’t help much, but any excuse  :D


Offline Harry von Fleischmann

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2018, 06:45:49 PM »
Here we go, a Welsh bill.



Ahah. That makes sense; so the archers were at the usual proportions but the billmen were making up the numbers as it were.


Offline Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2018, 06:47:52 PM »
Niiice.

Harry - I think so, but that's just guesswork really. It's also cheaper to have billmen rather than knights, men at arms, or even the comparatively well paid archers. So maybe it was a money thing, since we've rarely had money to spare in Wales!

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2018, 06:52:54 PM »
But then what happens when a 'lesser' man at arms is armed with a bill, or a halberd or something similar (rather than the more knightly poleaxe). Would we call him a billman or not?
And I'm sure the archers wouldn't be averse to handling a bill or other polearm.

So even if there are no 'billmen' as they appear in the records, there will probably still be bills hanging around, wielded by both archers and lesser men at arms.

Offline rivers3162

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2018, 06:57:08 PM »
Not sure if it’s any use to you but Rhys ap Thomas’ heraldic flag is available from Freezywater - sheet WRF23.

Offline Harry von Fleischmann

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2018, 07:12:12 PM »
Thank you Rivers!

I think cost may have been a factor as I remember reading that tax receipts were down massively in Wales in the 15th - the usual excuse being damage to the economy during the Glyndwr rebellion. So presuming that was true and even if it concealed the traditional tax minimisation, it’s a fair bet that the resources simply weren’t there.

As to how you’d treat these welsh bills, I’d imagine that they’d suffer in a toe to toe fight vs men at arms but if the ground was broken or they broke into the men at arms and things got a bit fluid then, well, look at Richard III?

Offline Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2018, 07:35:36 PM »
But then what happens when a 'lesser' man at arms is armed with a bill, or a halberd or something similar (rather than the more knightly poleaxe). Would we call him a billman or not?
And I'm sure the archers wouldn't be averse to handling a bill or other polearm.

So even if there are no 'billmen' as they appear in the records, there will probably still be bills hanging around, wielded by both archers and lesser men at arms.

Well exactly. The term 'bill' or 'billman' was no doubt an administrative term for the purposes of book keeping more than an exact and exclusive description of armament. It could simply be this was how many pole weapons that particular lord had paid for to arm an ill-equipped but sturdy recruit, thus fixing their (low) rate of pay and how they were used in battle under a particular captain.

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2018, 07:41:39 PM »
Well exactly. The term 'bill' or 'billman' was no doubt an administrative term for the purposes of book keeping more than an exact and exclusive description of armament. It could simply be this was how many pole weapons that particular lord had paid for to arm an ill-equipped but sturdy recruit, thus fixing their (low) rate of pay and how they were used in battle under a particular captain.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Due to the supposedly huge ratio of archers to men at arms all the records give us (in particular in the last few years of the HYW), I think it's inconceivable to think that these 'archers' weren't also equipped for close quarter fighting, and I mean better equipped than just a sword and buckler. So I think there would be loads of bills and other polearms on the battlefield, wielded by archers and less well equipped men-at-arms. The term 'billman' could be given to less experienced recruits who can't shoot a bow and need equipping (and couldn't be termed either archer or man-at-arms). Bills would have been cheap yet effective, so when such recruits did appear, the term 'billman' would be used on the records.