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Author Topic: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges  (Read 2079 times)

Online Cubs

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Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« on: August 09, 2018, 10:42:48 PM »
I'm thinking of collecting a little force of Rhys ap Thomas (or his father Thomas ap Gruffydd) retainers for WOTR and wondered if anyone knows where I can get flags and badge transfers for him from? He's not one of the big boys (wasn't even a knight until Bosworth) and so his clobber is hard to buy.


I'm pretty sure his livery was just white and the badge a black crow or raven.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

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Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 06:04:38 AM »
AFAIK he used the raven/crow as a badge and white for livery, but only after he became a knight (as was usually the case I believe). Before that probably the livery and one of the badges of whomever he was retained or empowered by at any particular time.

Lord Scrope of Bolton's badge of a Cornish Chough is similar and probably easier to source, but you'd have to over-paint the legs and beak in black.

I've no experience with this, but isn't it possible to buy 'decal paper' and print your own?

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 08:45:29 AM »
I'm thinking of collecting a little force of Rhys ap Thomas (or his father Thomas ap Gruffydd) retainers for WOTR

Nice. Great idea.

Just hand paint them Cubs. Piece of cake for a painter of your talents.  8)

Offline OSHIROmodels

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 08:57:54 AM »
Citadel Six do custom decals if I remember correctly so that’s an option.

Offline Romark

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2018, 09:00:49 AM »
Pm sent :)


Offline Stuart

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 03:55:07 PM »
Funnily enough I’m currently working on his unit for the early Tudor period. Pete’s flags have his standard;


Online Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2018, 05:57:41 PM »
Thanks guys, a lot of good ideas for me to mull over (except for the hand painting thing, which sounds like a lot of bother).

AFAIK he used the raven/crow as a badge and white for livery, but only after he became a knight (as was usually the case I believe). Before that probably the livery and one of the badges of whomever he was retained or empowered by at any particular time.

This is bothering me. I want to raise a smallish force based on South Wales forces, but I don't know whose livery they would have worn and when. I know Rhys ap Thomas raised a large force from Wales for Henry before Bosworth, so presumably was a member of the nobility (or family of) if not a knight, and was a veteran by then having fought several times before that as a young man. But did he raise his own men under his own banner (or his father?) or was he fighting for someone else? I might just say that in my world he is and stop worrying too much. The good thing about the Welsh forces is you can have them swapping sides quite merrily without swaying too much from history!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 06:00:35 PM by Cubs »

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2018, 06:13:36 PM »
Did you recommend this to me? (Someone here did). It's basically the Rhys ap Thomas story. Tells you pretty much everything you need to know about him IIRC...


Offline Stuart

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2018, 07:51:41 PM »
I second the book recommendation, a veritable Portrait of South Wales in the late 15 and early 16c

Online Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2018, 07:54:55 PM »
Did you recommend this to me? (Someone here did). It's basically the Rhys ap Thomas story. Tells you pretty much everything you need to know about him IIRC...



Then that baby is on the list! I'm gonna be all over that like me on a kebab.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2018, 08:08:50 PM »
This is bothering me.

And well it might. Truth is we can never be 100% that he wasn't raising men under his own badge and livery before he was legally able. Almost all the attempts to limit 'livery and maintenance', from Henry V onwards, concentrated on 'illegal retaining'; that is to say retaining folk who weren't resident in your household, or who weren't paid an 'annuity' (regular retainer). It was rife and was only suppressed when it was not done in the interest of the king.

Rhys raised his men after Henry Tudor landed. The time between the landing and Bosworth was fifteen days, which doesn't bode well for making livery jackets, issuing them and marching time. However if Rhys was calling up family, friends and 'well-wishers' from an existing affinity within Mid-Wales, then it is likely that livery coats et al, may have been kept in readiness for just such an occasion; an example of illegal retaining in other words.

I'd pick the scenario above that suits your fancy and I'd imagine anyone would be hard pushed to prove you wrong either way. The force he raised is usually said to have been 500 strong, a reasonable force for most knights or lords to raise, but pretty incredible to raise and have moving in such a short time. That suggests pre-planning and supports the idea that his force was waiting in readiness for the call, probably with livery jackets ready for issue.

Whether it was his livery, Pembroke's or Tudor's is another question, but his own livery is less likely to warrant a beheading if plans went awry. He might put his hands up to illegal retaining and pay a fine, but Tudor livery would be proof of treason without question.

Short version: I think you're probably safe with Rhys's livery, all things considered.  :)
 

Online Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2018, 08:42:40 PM »

Whether it was his livery, Pembroke's or Tudor's is another question, but his own livery is less likely to warrant a beheading if plans went awry. He might put his hands up to illegal retaining and pay a fine, but Tudor livery would be proof of treason without question.

I was thinking about doing Herbert colours as well, just for fun.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2018, 09:26:47 PM »
I was thinking of Jasper Tudor as Pembroke, William Herbert was Earl of Huntingdon from 1479, but was still Chief Justice of South Wales, with a lot of land and a £1k annuity from Richard III for marrying his illegitimate daughter.

They're all a colourful lot though and certainly the Herberts were Richard III's guys down that way.

Online Cubs

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2018, 11:08:12 PM »
This shit is why I hate WotR stuff - everyone's got 14 different names (but only 4 first names to share amongst all the men - William, Richard, Edward or Henry) and they keep getting swapped about!

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2018, 12:58:23 AM »
Tell me about it, iirc there were three Humphrey Staffords and two William Stanleys at one point. Keeps you on your toes though, forget Sudoku.  ;)