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28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics

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guitarheroandy:
So, I've always had a hankering to do something with Republican Romans - for the last 20 years in fact. But I've never yet found quite the right way into it. However, now, I think I may have found it.
 
I'm reading a book about Rome's conquest of Italy in the 5th - 3rd centuries BC and have got myself thinking seriously about using Victrix plastics to do a Lion/Dragon Rampant thing set in the Samnite Wars.

The Samnites will be easy enough to do - a box of armoured and a couple of boxes of unarmored will give me plenty enough for 6 units. The question is, offensive light foot (heavy for the armoured) or Bellicose (with 'terrifically shiny armour' for the armoured?) I like the idea of the latter given what I'm reading about the Samnites and their ability to use rough ground and their fierce charge, but this would preclude them from using javelins from ambush...unless I field some 'scouts' to take care of javelin chucking. I need to do some thinking there...

The Romans are a tad more tricky. This project is set in the late 4th/early 3rd century, so I reckon I don't need too many mail-clad models at this stage - mail still being a relatively new thing from Gaul. I guess that means I'd need the box of Romans with Pectorale armour. This is fine for Hastati and some Principes, but isn't quite what I'm after for the richer/more experienced Principes and Triarii. So I think the 'Allied Legion' box may come in useful here. The wide range of bronze armours in here may enable me to reflect richer warriors, or simply those who've replaced their simple pectorales with more fancy ones looted from dead enemies over the years
.
There is an article for using Lion Rampant with Punic armies in WSS magazine so I may well start there for rules for Romans. However, it's the equipment I'm struggling on. Most rules' army lists recently have had the Principes in this era armed with spears, not pila. So I could do that; it seems logical in the transition from hoplite warfare and potentially makes the Romans more defensive than the Samnites. That might work, although I have read an article in Ancient Warfare magazine yesterday that has me doubting the spear in favour of the pilum. Hmm... Undecided... More reading required, I think.

Also, appearance: This is a citizen militia with soldiers supplying their own kit. This means going for a very non-uniformed look. I'm thinking of doing Hastati with fairly limited tunic colour palette - more unbleached linen than other colours, with Principes and Triarii having slightly broader colour palette and a few tunics with coloured border trims. I'm also considering abandoning the traditional 'all shields alike' thing as well. LBM do a mix of transfers for the Romans and I'm even considering a mix of red, white and yellow shields in the units, even a mix of animal designs, as there's nothing to say for sure that each legion had unique shield designs in this era. Lots were probably unpatterned, especially amongst the poorer soldiers. I kinda think that feels 'right' but I'm not sure how it'd look in practice. Part of me wants to keep at least a base colour the same for 'the legion' even if the pattern on it is different as that always ties a force together more.

EDIT: Here's a link to Andrew Taylor's painting blog - this inspires me to try a mixed look to the shields. They look excellent, and I know it's not a full unit, but... https://andrewtaylorpainting.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/romans/

So, what do you think? Spear-armed Principes or pila-armed?
Shields mixed (colours and designs)? Mixed designs on same background colour or all the same colour and design for all in the legion?  I know it's totally up to me, but am interested to hear what you all think...

If I go to Partizan on Sunday, I think I may buy a  box of Romans to get me started, as I want to paint some of those first... I'm hoping this might get me back into painting. I have a few projects in various stages of unfinishedness, but none that grab me enough to finish them right now... This might be the catalyst that gets me going!

Oh, and if any of you have any ideas about rule adaptions, I'd love to hear those too. Especially on what to do to get those Samnites acting appropriately 'Samnite-ish'.

arget8:
Andy,

First off, I'm already looking forward to this hypothetical project. Second, here are my thoughts"

At this point in time, it seems like the Romans were really trying to be Greek, so you could even potentially throw in some Greek bodies. In my opinion, if you see Carthaginians and Greeks wearing pretty much the same linothorax armor, odds are that the Romans wore it some too.

The spear vs. pila debate will rage of throughout eternity, but in my opinion, spear armed Principes more likely. That said, pila armed Principes are much more useful in the long run regarding cross-compatibility for other projects.

I like the idea of varied shields, but I think it should have a general theme, whether that be color patterns (red and white, yellow and black, etc.) or designs (all boars or lightning bolts on varying backgrounds) The variations will make them more interesting, but having a central theme will make the force feel much more cohesive.

One thing to consider is maybe even mixing shields from other sets, like the Allied Italians, Samnites, Greeks, Carthaginians, or maybe even the Iberians. If you do it in a small enough number, your force will retain the Roman look, but have just that little bet of variety when compared to out of the box Romans.

markw:
Hi,

Sounds an interesting little project you have there. In regards to early Romans have a peek at the Agema range. Good luck

tin shed gamer:
If you do decide to go to Partizan, I'll be there with friends who run a Late Roman Re enactments.(Ross did his doctorate on Roman military equipment).
Plus the following weekend Tony , Ross,and Matt are in Wales building a Roman legionary fort.With a fair few other Roman re enactment groups,and that's open to the public.(I've not got the details on me as I'm posting from my phone)

Mark.

Mad Doc Morris:
A lot of thought has already gone into this – thumbs up for that, sounds great so far!

Regarding colours, I'd go for a slightly varied yet limited palette. Romans considered warfare a sacred and highly formalised affair, particularly in your period of choice when they were just emerging from a tribal community. Hence clothing and choice of colours were likely a religious matter as well. Soldiers might have dressed for battle, perhaps 'changing their wear' upon leaving camp.
From checking Graham Sumner's work on "Roman Military Dress": White is one option since it was used for ceremonial dress, if mostly in times of peace. Red was the colour of Mars (attested by frescoes, some literary references or the dedication of the red faction in the circus to Mars). Also, later Marian legionaries were known as "russati", red-dyed ones. Officers, maybe down to centurions, are mentioned to be wearing blue at times. References for other colours or embroidered tunics seem to be rare to nonexistent.

In short, I'd use a variation of reds to reddish browns. At this point there were no "poorer soldiers", since service was reserved to those able to afford at least basic equipment. The younger hastati fought under the watchful eyes of their elder brothers and fathers in the back. I think it's therefore equally likely that they dressed and decorated themselves as nicely as possible.

No definite answer to the 'pilum issue' here. But I take it that the principes were the equivalent of archaic javelin-armed hoplites who were expelled from the classical phalanx at some point. In Roman warfare they just formed up as separate units in front of the triarii phalanx. Thus I'd give them spears with javelins (pila) as a backup.

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