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Author Topic: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics  (Read 3950 times)

Offline guitarheroandy

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28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:24:13 PM »
So, I've always had a hankering to do something with Republican Romans - for the last 20 years in fact. But I've never yet found quite the right way into it. However, now, I think I may have found it.
 
I'm reading a book about Rome's conquest of Italy in the 5th - 3rd centuries BC and have got myself thinking seriously about using Victrix plastics to do a Lion/Dragon Rampant thing set in the Samnite Wars.

The Samnites will be easy enough to do - a box of armoured and a couple of boxes of unarmored will give me plenty enough for 6 units. The question is, offensive light foot (heavy for the armoured) or Bellicose (with 'terrifically shiny armour' for the armoured?) I like the idea of the latter given what I'm reading about the Samnites and their ability to use rough ground and their fierce charge, but this would preclude them from using javelins from ambush...unless I field some 'scouts' to take care of javelin chucking. I need to do some thinking there...

The Romans are a tad more tricky. This project is set in the late 4th/early 3rd century, so I reckon I don't need too many mail-clad models at this stage - mail still being a relatively new thing from Gaul. I guess that means I'd need the box of Romans with Pectorale armour. This is fine for Hastati and some Principes, but isn't quite what I'm after for the richer/more experienced Principes and Triarii. So I think the 'Allied Legion' box may come in useful here. The wide range of bronze armours in here may enable me to reflect richer warriors, or simply those who've replaced their simple pectorales with more fancy ones looted from dead enemies over the years
.
There is an article for using Lion Rampant with Punic armies in WSS magazine so I may well start there for rules for Romans. However, it's the equipment I'm struggling on. Most rules' army lists recently have had the Principes in this era armed with spears, not pila. So I could do that; it seems logical in the transition from hoplite warfare and potentially makes the Romans more defensive than the Samnites. That might work, although I have read an article in Ancient Warfare magazine yesterday that has me doubting the spear in favour of the pilum. Hmm... Undecided... More reading required, I think.

Also, appearance: This is a citizen militia with soldiers supplying their own kit. This means going for a very non-uniformed look. I'm thinking of doing Hastati with fairly limited tunic colour palette - more unbleached linen than other colours, with Principes and Triarii having slightly broader colour palette and a few tunics with coloured border trims. I'm also considering abandoning the traditional 'all shields alike' thing as well. LBM do a mix of transfers for the Romans and I'm even considering a mix of red, white and yellow shields in the units, even a mix of animal designs, as there's nothing to say for sure that each legion had unique shield designs in this era. Lots were probably unpatterned, especially amongst the poorer soldiers. I kinda think that feels 'right' but I'm not sure how it'd look in practice. Part of me wants to keep at least a base colour the same for 'the legion' even if the pattern on it is different as that always ties a force together more.

EDIT: Here's a link to Andrew Taylor's painting blog - this inspires me to try a mixed look to the shields. They look excellent, and I know it's not a full unit, but... https://andrewtaylorpainting.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/romans/

So, what do you think? Spear-armed Principes or pila-armed?
Shields mixed (colours and designs)? Mixed designs on same background colour or all the same colour and design for all in the legion?  I know it's totally up to me, but am interested to hear what you all think...

If I go to Partizan on Sunday, I think I may buy a  box of Romans to get me started, as I want to paint some of those first... I'm hoping this might get me back into painting. I have a few projects in various stages of unfinishedness, but none that grab me enough to finish them right now... This might be the catalyst that gets me going!

Oh, and if any of you have any ideas about rule adaptions, I'd love to hear those too. Especially on what to do to get those Samnites acting appropriately 'Samnite-ish'.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 09:42:57 PM by guitarheroandy »

Offline arget8

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Re: Pondering a new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2018, 10:53:59 PM »
Andy,

First off, I'm already looking forward to this hypothetical project. Second, here are my thoughts"

At this point in time, it seems like the Romans were really trying to be Greek, so you could even potentially throw in some Greek bodies. In my opinion, if you see Carthaginians and Greeks wearing pretty much the same linothorax armor, odds are that the Romans wore it some too.

The spear vs. pila debate will rage of throughout eternity, but in my opinion, spear armed Principes more likely. That said, pila armed Principes are much more useful in the long run regarding cross-compatibility for other projects.

I like the idea of varied shields, but I think it should have a general theme, whether that be color patterns (red and white, yellow and black, etc.) or designs (all boars or lightning bolts on varying backgrounds) The variations will make them more interesting, but having a central theme will make the force feel much more cohesive.

One thing to consider is maybe even mixing shields from other sets, like the Allied Italians, Samnites, Greeks, Carthaginians, or maybe even the Iberians. If you do it in a small enough number, your force will retain the Roman look, but have just that little bet of variety when compared to out of the box Romans.

Offline markw

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Re: Pondering a new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2018, 11:02:37 AM »
Hi,

Sounds an interesting little project you have there. In regards to early Romans have a peek at the Agema range. Good luck

Online tin shed gamer

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Re: Pondering a new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2018, 12:05:19 PM »
If you do decide to go to Partizan, I'll be there with friends who run a Late Roman Re enactments.(Ross did his doctorate on Roman military equipment).
Plus the following weekend Tony , Ross,and Matt are in Wales building a Roman legionary fort.With a fair few other Roman re enactment groups,and that's open to the public.(I've not got the details on me as I'm posting from my phone)

Mark.

Offline Mad Doc Morris

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Re: Pondering a new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2018, 04:17:10 PM »
A lot of thought has already gone into this – thumbs up for that, sounds great so far!

Regarding colours, I'd go for a slightly varied yet limited palette. Romans considered warfare a sacred and highly formalised affair, particularly in your period of choice when they were just emerging from a tribal community. Hence clothing and choice of colours were likely a religious matter as well. Soldiers might have dressed for battle, perhaps 'changing their wear' upon leaving camp.
From checking Graham Sumner's work on "Roman Military Dress": White is one option since it was used for ceremonial dress, if mostly in times of peace. Red was the colour of Mars (attested by frescoes, some literary references or the dedication of the red faction in the circus to Mars). Also, later Marian legionaries were known as "russati", red-dyed ones. Officers, maybe down to centurions, are mentioned to be wearing blue at times. References for other colours or embroidered tunics seem to be rare to nonexistent.

In short, I'd use a variation of reds to reddish browns. At this point there were no "poorer soldiers", since service was reserved to those able to afford at least basic equipment. The younger hastati fought under the watchful eyes of their elder brothers and fathers in the back. I think it's therefore equally likely that they dressed and decorated themselves as nicely as possible.

No definite answer to the 'pilum issue' here. But I take it that the principes were the equivalent of archaic javelin-armed hoplites who were expelled from the classical phalanx at some point. In Roman warfare they just formed up as separate units in front of the triarii phalanx. Thus I'd give them spears with javelins (pila) as a backup.

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Pondering a new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 09:41:39 PM »
Thanks very much for the replies thus far. I've checked out the Agema figures. Not quite as nice as the Victrix ones to my eyes - too many mail clad chaps for me as well. I do like some of the metal character figures though.

Thanks for the tunic info also. I must admit that I was angling towards some reddish-browns from Foundry - Madder, Terracotta, etc. I want to avoid anything too bright scarlet. I've also seen a handful of pictorial sources, including in Ancient Warfare magazine, of individual Italian infantry wearing a very pale blue. Foundry do 'Night Sky light' which would be ideal for that, although I may reserve that for officers.

By the look of the Victrix sprues, hastae are in short supply in the box so I'll either have to equip the Principes with pila or replace all hastae with steel ones - and use some pilum arms with those too. Author Ross Cowan (whose book on the conquest of Italy I'm reading) seems to prefer the pilum for Principes, even in this era. In his brief mentions of Roman tactics thus far (I'm in the middle of the book) he doesn't mention the spear vs pilum debate at all. It seems that the principles with spear thing comes from Dionysus of Halicanassus who refers to Principes as 'those engaging in close combat with cavalry spears held in the centre by both hands, who in many cases win the battle." I didn't know this until researching this project. This reference to both hands is weird given the importance of the scutum to Roman soldiers, so whether this was a one-off thing in response to a particular enemy, a writer who heard of spearmen in the Roman army and assumed they used pikes like the Greek phalanx, or what, who knows? In another article in Ancient Warfare magazine, Ross Cowan recounts how Livy asserts that the pilum had been in use by 494BC by the Romans. But this is Livy, and we all know how inconsistent his work is. He also seems to be suggesting that the term 'pilum' in the early Republic covered a lot more than the typical thing we see on Imperial legionaries and that some might even have been intended as 'multi-use' weapons, i.e. the iron shank wasn't intended to bend on impact. I can see why debate rages about this now! So I have a decision to make... But at least I can make a start on the Hastati and Triarii as I know what's what with those!

Anyway, I'm definitely going to Partizan this weekend so my first stop will be buying a couple of boxes to get me started. I've also seen individual sprues on sale on EBAY if I should decide to cave in and have a very few wearing  mail.

Keep the responses coming. It all helps...

Offline Cyrus1

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Re: Pondering a new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 10:49:45 PM »
It sounds like a fun project. For Roman figures the Victrix and Aventine Republican Romans are a perfect match, so mixing those ranges may be a good option that would give you the range of armour you're after.

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: A new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant Update
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 12:56:33 PM »
UPDATE:

Romans purchased at Partizan yesterday. One box of Pectoral armoured legion, one box of Italian allied legion and one box of Greek Successor cavalry. All I've ever read about early Republican Roman cavalry in army lists, etc, is that they were unarmored and next to useless. However, these were the richer members of society, aristocrats. They could afford a horse so surely they could afford a bit of armour too and would want to buy some to keep themselves alive longer? Anyway, the upcoming Victrix Roman cavalry are all in mail, which I didn't really want (although some in mail would be good), so I have decided to use the Successor cavalry as my equites, with heads from the Roman/Allied box sets. They'll have throwing spear and possibly the spined shield that comes in the pack. I also want to make a command figure to represent the Roman leader, whatever his name will be (more on names of leaders later).
This armoured cavalry certainly suits me better having read Livy's accounts of the role of Equites in the Italian wars of conquest. Whether it's accurate or not who knows, but this project is increasingly being driven by Livy's flawed history - I'm even calling it Livius Rampant in honour of the poor, misunderstood and much maligned (not entirely fairly, given that he was dealing with a load of cruddy sources himself) historian! Pictures as soon as I've stuck a few together...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 11:10:48 PM by guitarheroandy »

Offline Hu Rhu

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Re: A new project - 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant Update
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 05:53:52 PM »
Really looking forward to see how this pans out.

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 09:52:09 PM »
Hello again! It's been a while, but some progress made and I just wanted to prove that something is happening with this project! The Roman army is nearly all purchased - just need a box (well, a couple of sprues actually) of the new Victrix Republican Roman cavalry and we'll be there. It's all Victrix models. They are too good to resist!

Here is a quick shot of 2 units of Hastati which have been base coated, dipped and Dullcoted and are awaiting highlights, plus some Leves/Rorarii about to be base coated. I intend to get 2 units of these, plus one of my Principes units to the same standard as the Hastati you see here by the end of next weekend if possible! Then I can start a massive highlighting and shield design fixing spree! Then it'll be doing it all over again with the remaining units - Principes, Triarii and Equites.

The adaptions to Lion/Dragon Rampant are coming on apace and first playtests (with proxy models) are likely to happen in the next few weeks. 

Stick with me...this is gonna be good, I think! More info on how I finalised my model choices and my colour choices when I post pics of finished units.





Offline Irregular Wars Nic

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Re: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2018, 07:19:44 AM »
Looking great!

Offline redzed

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Re: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 07:43:01 AM »
good choice of rules, I'm finding them really useful for virtually everything. :D
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Offline Ragnar

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Re: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2018, 08:16:45 AM »
Excellent start.  I'll keep an eye in this project.
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Offline Lord Raglan

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Re: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2018, 08:52:53 AM »
I am liking those mate, well done!!

Offline markw

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Re: 28mm Samnite Wars using Lion/Dragon Rampant First WIP Pics
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 12:08:59 PM »
The figures are looking good. Quick question why would you dip and then dullcote prior to highlight phase?

Cheers