British Motor Battalion platoon size

[Alan Mercer]

I have been reading the David Porter book, 7th Armoured Division at Villiers-Bocage, and it sets out the rifle sections of A Company 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade as 8 men in a M5 halftrack. I have only seen British section size of 10.

Was this a motor battalion specific section size or did the 2 M5 crew count as the other 2 men? In which case, how did this work in practice as I assume the crew didn’t tend to hop out and join in any engagements?

Any help greatly appreciated.

[NTM]

Motor Platoons were smaller than the infantry version. The section of 8 includes the driver.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160429193447/http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com:80/British/Motor/british_motor_battalion%201943%20to%201945.htm

[Alan Mercer]

Thanks for that, most interesting. Any links for how this section organisation worked in combat? Porter gives some general hints about company tactics but it would be good to see something more detailed.

[MartinR]

Even normal British rifle sections rarely went into action with more than eight men.

Tactics were identical, gun group led by the lance corporal and rifle group led by the corporal.

Minimum viable section size was regarded as six (two on the Bren, the rest on the rifle group).

[Arlequín]

Was that really the case though?

I recall reading somewhere that in '44-'45, the separate gun/rifle group format was dropped in action, in favour of just one section group of 6-8 men. Fire and movement was by whole sections, rather than parts of sections, with ad-hoc 'pepper pot' movement within the section as required.

Certainly in a motor battalion, with a smaller establishment to begin with, just 75-80% 'running' strength and a need to provide at least a gunner for the section half-track, 5-6 dismounts might be the norm, or even a 'good day' in the field.

[vodkafan]

Bayonet Strength website used to have all this info on the motor battalions I am sure.  I know from memory 7+ driver is correct though, because before getting the M5 half track the sections drove about in the C15TA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C15TA_Armoured_Truck
I can't remember if there were 4 motor rifle sections in a motor rifle platoon though instead of 3? Or is that just the special organisation for the platoons in the recce regiments? Oh dear I am confusing myself now....   I think there is an archive online somewhere of the Bayonet Strength orgs.

[Cubs]

Was that really the case though?

A case of theory and practice not always matching. Presumably the gun group/rifle group hopping did happen when it was viable, and didn't when it wasn't. Soldiers are usually pretty good at finding what works and quietly doing away with what doesn't.

[carlos marighela]

I understood that the Great War practice of men 'left out of battle' was continued in the Second World War. Either way by 1944 there was a manpower crunch in Britain. Hence the Bevin Boys etc.  I suspect most battalions, motor or shanks pony were lucky to have more than eight per section.

[Alan Mercer]

Thanks for your replies, all very helpful. When finished, my Rifles will be going up against my son’s Panzer Lehr so should be a challenge.

[Arlequín]

Add to the manpower shortages the higher rate of combat attrition you'd expect amongst section leaders and you have smaller sections under relatively inexperienced leaders in the main.

The Americans certainly had the same issues and their own three team squad became a one team squad in no time at all.

Training itself was abbreviated too, with 'battle drill' often left out due to a dearth of men capable of supervising it at regimental level. While replacements might never have received time on the Bren, they sure knew how to box a blanket and what was the correct posture when speaking to an officer. 

[MartinR]

A case of theory and practice not always matching. Presumably the gun group/rifle group hopping did happen when it was viable, and didn't when it wasn't. Soldiers are usually pretty good at finding what works and quietly doing away with what doesn't.

Yes, there were lots of variations, right up to the platoons who fought as one huge gun group and one huge rifle group. I always like contrast the experiences of Sidney Jary and Douglas Firbank, the former being very much a Wigram style charger, the latter a stickler for Battle Drill, which he found worked very well.

[MartinR]

For those interested in such things, I've put up a PDF of Lt Colonel Wigrams report to Montgomery about how the British infantry did (and didn't ) fight in Sicily on my blog.

https://tgamesweplay.blogspot.com/p/downloads.html

It is in the 'Historical Interest' section.

For the practical application of Battle Drill, I'd recommend 'I Bought a Star' by Thomas Firbank, a somewhat unlikely Welsh shepherd who became a Guards officer and later served in 1st Airborne. He ended up commanding the parachute infantry training school so knew something about infantry tactics.

[Eclaireur]

Interesting info in that pdf Martin - thank you for posting

[Arlequín]

Indeed, thank you! 

[Jemima Fawr]

Just to add to what's been said: Yes, the Motor Section was smaller at 7 men plus driver and as has also been said, the LOB system usually meant it was even smaller in action.  There were three Sections per Motor Platoon - the four-section organisation was the Assault Troop found in Squadrons of Recce Regiments. 

Note that Motor Companies had three Motor Platoons plus a Scout Platoon with three sections of 3x Carriers (10x Carriers total).

Re the C15TA - that came after the Halftrack, not before.  The Canadians in particular generally replaced their halftracks with C15TAs late in the war.