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Author Topic: Men Of Bronze  (Read 37784 times)

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #135 on: October 15, 2019, 10:57:24 PM »
I figured some of you might find this of interst since I believe a previous commentator said something along the lines of a Greek shield is an Aspis and not a Hoplon.....

https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/the-hoplites-hoplon/

Quote
Today, I wanted to write a brief bit on a particular error that I encounter again and again despite the fact that most people by now ought to know better. It concerns the origin of the word “hoplite”, the term applied to denote a Greek heavily-armed warrior. The term itself is not without problems: it’s not used before the fifth century BC, for example, and Xenophon is able to refer to Egyptian warriors with shields also as hoplites (Anabasis 1.8.9).

In any event, the main issue is that a lot of people still claim that hoplites are named after their shield, which in Greek is supposedly called a hoplon. This mistake is so widespread that few seem to notice it any more. It still pops up frequently in academic and non-academic contexts alike. Here, let me pick an example at random. This is the entry for “hoplite” in Phil Sabin’s book Lost Battles, published originally in 2007:


 
Hoplite. The Greek term for heavy infantry, usually used today to refer specifically to the spearmen of Classical Greek poleis with their distinctive round ‘hoplon’ shields.

But back in 1996, J.F. Lazenby and David Whitehead wrote an article entitled “The myth of the hoplite’s hoplon”, published in Classical Quarterly 46.1, pp. 27–33. The abstract reads as follows:

“Hoplites are troops who take their name from their shields”. “The individual infantryman took his name, hoplites, from the hoplon or shield”. Such is the orthodox view. This paper will endeavour to show that its basis is inadequate. Rather, we shall argue, hoplites took their name from their arms and armour as a whole, their hopla in that all-encompassing sense; so that the original and essential meaning of the word hoplite was nothing more than “(heavily-)armed (infantry-)man”.
 
As the authors show, hoplon in Greek does not refer specifically to a shield, but rather to some piece, any piece, of equipment. Aspis is the typical Greek word for shield. But for some reason, ten and even twenty years after the publication of this article, the error continues to be replicated. Hopefully, this article can help set the record straight.

You can read Lazenby and Whitehead’s article over on JStor. If you don’t have access to JStor via a university library, you can sign up for a free account and read it that way. (Under no circumstances should you ever pay $19 for a single article.)

Note
Roel Konijnendijk points out that the error goes back to Diodorus. (I didn’t mention this because Lazenby & Whitehead also discuss the relevant passage on page 28, where they point out the logical fallacy of peltasts being named after their pelte and hoplites being “named after their… aspides!”).

Josho Brouwers
Josho Brouwers
Editor-in-Chief
An archaeologist by training, Josho Brouwers has a PhD in ancient Greek warfare. His PhD thesis was published in book form as Henchmen of Ares: Warriors and Warfare in Early Greece (2013).



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Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #136 on: December 23, 2019, 03:41:38 PM »
Here is a consolidated group of links for the new Army Lists I built for Men of Bronze:

Syracuse/Sicillian Greeks- https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html

Carthage-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html

Thessaly-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/men-of-bronze-thessaly-army-list.html

Pre-Reform Macedonia-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-pre-reform-macedonia.html

I think the only one left is to re-evaluate a list for Thrace and possibly Greeks in Southern Italy.  In a pinch you could use the Syracusan list...... 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 03:44:15 PM by Easy E »

Offline seldon

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #137 on: January 01, 2020, 09:29:58 AM »
I figured some of you might find this of interst since I believe a previous commentator said something along the lines of a Greek shield is an Aspis and not a Hoplon.....

https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/the-hoplites-hoplon/

Very interesting read! Thanks for posting...

Offline seldon

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #138 on: January 01, 2020, 09:30:52 AM »
Here is a consolidated group of links for the new Army Lists I built for Men of Bronze:

Syracuse/Sicillian Greeks- https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html

Carthage-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html

Thessaly-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/men-of-bronze-thessaly-army-list.html

Pre-Reform Macedonia-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-pre-reform-macedonia.html

I think the only one left is to re-evaluate a list for Thrace and possibly Greeks in Southern Italy.  In a pinch you could use the Syracusan list......

Fantastic !

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #139 on: January 15, 2020, 10:17:43 PM »
So, what other lists would you guys like to see for Men of Bronze? 

I think there are possibly three more I want to cover, but I am open to hear other ideas.  I still think I want to cover the following:

1. Thracian List
2. Tarantine/Magna Graecia
3. Illyrian Lists

The Tarentines and Illyrians will probably come from the Iapygian-Tarentine Wars as a mini-campaign.  The Thracians might be a bit more stand-alone in nature. 

However, what do you want to see?

Offline seldon

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2020, 12:34:27 AM »
Iberians
Italian tribes

maybe ?

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2020, 02:39:23 PM »
Iberians
Italian tribes

maybe ?

I will have these guys in the Wars of the Roman Republic book from Osprey.  They should work with Men of Bronze with little to no modification.  :)

Offline seldon

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #142 on: January 17, 2020, 05:48:58 PM »
excellent !

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #143 on: January 19, 2020, 07:14:05 PM »
Just finished reading my Kindle copy of Men of Bronze, very interesting. I won't get to play any time soon since I am headed out of town soon to attend the wedding of a niece. Also, we don't have many hoplite figures in our group, though I have been known to make up card units to test rules before. Do I go for 10mm to make this a totally separate project from all our DBA stuff or do 15mm DBX so it can do double-duty? A good reason to test with card units first.

I have a couple quibbles: as stated by someone else somewhere (that I can't find again), warbands seem to cost a prohibitive amount for a unit that is less impressive than cheaper peltasts. In the Kindle rules, the discipline header reads "disciple". Perhaps a special rule for the Life of Brian version?  ;)
In the Platea scenario, the Persians pay a mere 8 points for their drilled Theban hoplites. A bargain price?

That said, I worked on publishing board games in a previous millennium and recall how various glitches only reveal themselves once the game has been published.
And the glorious general led the advance
With a glorious swish of his sword and his lance
And a glorious clank of his tin-plated pants. - Dr. Seuss


My blog: http://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2020, 04:50:45 PM »
Good insights indeed. 

The reason for the points cost increase in Warband infantry was pretty simple.  In test games, the Warband infantry managed to achieve objectives and win games, while Peltasts just died!  I think it was because the Warband infantry had a clearer focus.  Use speed to get to objectives and behind enemy units for rear/flank attacks.  Meanwhile, the Peltasts often got muddled, did next to nothing, and died.  Therefore, the Warband infantry seemed to be more useful than Peltasts thanks to their purity of purpose.  Hence, the points cost increase.  Perhaps a place where playtesting led me astray?    :-X :-X :-X 

However, I do agree that 4 points seems to be a better points value for them.  I am testing that points cost for Wars of the Republic for similar units.  So far, it seems to be working fine. 

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2020, 02:55:39 PM »

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2021, 03:41:52 PM »
Not a necro, I swear!  I just wanted everyone to know I have added an Etruscan list for Men of Bronze on my blog.




Most of the time, we associate the Etruscans with the rise of Rome.  This is true, but the Etruscans were not just rivals of Rome, they were also early rivals of Carthage and the Greek settlers into the western parts of the Mediterranean.  There was a period known as the Etruscan Expansion that brought Greeks and Etruscans into conflict.  Most of the documented battles were at sea, but where there is conflict at Sea, there is also conflict on land.  Since we have no remaining written (and translated) Etruscan sources, such details have likely been lost to history. 



An illustration of Etruscan warriors from Warry's Warfare in the Ancient World.

However, you can see an army list for the Etruscans in Men of Bronze on the blog here:

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2021/01/men-of-bronze-etruscans.html

Offline Szary

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2021, 06:59:41 PM »
Whilst I still have to finish my basic forces for the game, I have to say that level of continued support on your part is beyond commendable. Very good read, too.

I'm definitely buying Heirs as soon as they go on next periodic WV sale.

Offline Easy E

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2021, 08:04:05 PM »
Thanks Szary. 

In addition to updates on Men of Bronze, Osprey is looking to publish Wars of the Republic in November which will also expand on what can be done with the system. 

I am also working on rules for:

1. The Viking Age- Ready to Playtest
2. Late Roman Era- Very early stages
3. Chariot Wars- Mostly complete

Is there any that interest you, and other readers of the thread in the future more than others?

Offline Emir of Askaristan

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Re: Men Of Bronze
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2021, 08:18:18 PM »
The chariot wars in particular. Is this for a big kadesh type game or something smaller scale?