*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 08:13:02 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1686620
  • Total Topics: 118114
  • Online Today: 777
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 12:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily  (Read 2294 times)

Offline Easy E

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1930
  • Just some guy who does stuff
    • Blood and Spectacles
Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« on: October 15, 2018, 04:57:46 PM »
Greetings fellow historical players.

 I am trying to find some good sources on the Sicillian Wars between the Greeks, Cathaginians, and Sicillians between 480 to 307 BCE. 

Primarily I am interested in good secondary sources, as I am familiar with Diodorus Siculus work on the subject.  However, I am more interested in understanding the make-up and composition of a Sicillian army.  The Greeks evolved a lot in their military preferences as did the Carthaginians.  However, I am not having much luck with the military structures of the ancient Sicillians.

I could assume they mirrored other Greek colonies in Magna-Graecia, but I want to know a bit more before running forward with that idea. 

Thanks for your help! 

Here is a the wiki if that helps you understand the era and information I am looking for:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing

Offline Irregular Wars Nic

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 940
    • Visit the Irregular Wars blog:
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 06:34:31 PM »
I only have notions based on memories of primary sources but...

Thucydides goes into a lot of detail about the Athenian Sicilian expedition of 413. Syracusans at least seemed to have made great use of skirmishing archers and slingers (and javelin armed psiloi?) against the Athenian expeditionary force. In the third century BC, the Sicilians were known as slingers and archers. The Athenians themselves seem to have picked up plenty of Italians - Daunians etc who would count as peltasts more than hoplites I imagine.

Plutarch (Life of Dion maybe?) talks a lot about the Syracusan tyrants hiring mercenaries.

Offline Arrigo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1074
  • errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est
    • Forward HQ my new blog where you can laugh at my crappy photos!
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 06:51:22 PM »
how good is your italian?

'Guerra per la Sicilia e guerra della Sicilia. Il ruolo delle cittą siciliane nel primo conflitto romano-punico' by Claudio Vacanti. It covers the last bit of the wars in sicily, so it is a bit extreme for your time frame, but provides good information on greek cities in sicily.
"Put Grant straight in"

for pretty tanks and troops: http://forwardhq.blogspot.com

Offline Easy E

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1930
  • Just some guy who does stuff
    • Blood and Spectacles
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 07:37:25 PM »
how good is your italian?

'Guerra per la Sicilia e guerra della Sicilia. Il ruolo delle cittą siciliane nel primo conflitto romano-punico' by Claudio Vacanti. It covers the last bit of the wars in sicily, so it is a bit extreme for your time frame, but provides good information on greek cities in sicily.

I can't even read the menu at an Italian restaurant.   lol   

Offline Duncan Head

  • Student
  • Posts: 17
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2018, 08:10:48 AM »
If you know Diodoros you're off to a good start.

For modern works, start with Jeff Champion's two volumes on the Tyrants of Syracuse - here and here. He's not quite as pro-Greek biased as Diodorus but a good volume on Carthage might be a good balance - Richard Miles is good on the interactions between Punic, Greek and Italian cultures in Sicily.

Offline zippyfusenet

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 420
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2018, 05:05:11 PM »
Run it through babelfish.

https://www.babelfish.com


Original
Guerra per la Sicilia e guerra della Sicilia. Il ruolo delle cittą siciliane nel primo conflitto romano-punico
Translation
War for Sicily and Sicilian war. The role of cities in Sicily during the first Punic-Roman conflict
You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

Offline Easy E

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1930
  • Just some guy who does stuff
    • Blood and Spectacles
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2018, 09:46:41 PM »
So after reading up more on the battle of Hamilcar and the first Carthaginian attempt to take Sicily I have come to some basic conclusions.

The Sicilian armies of the Tyrant Gelon (IIRC) probably looked a lot like Hoplite Armies from Greece.  Mostly citizen spearmen militia with slingers and peltast like all other Greek armies of the time.  The question I have is..... did this change as Carthage, Rome, and Sicily got more involved?  Did the "Macedonian" style ever replace the Hoplite style in Sicily? 

I do not know.  Thoughts?   

Offline SteveBurt

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1283
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 10:38:27 AM »
As far as I know, Syracusan armies were very like contemporary Hoplite armies.
I don't think Pikemen were ever used. The Mamertines who caused loads of problems were armed like Greek Hoplites.
I can recommend John Lazenby: First Punic War: Military History.

Offline Arrigo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1074
  • errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est
    • Forward HQ my new blog where you can laugh at my crappy photos!
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2018, 04:56:33 PM »
Brian Caven's book on Dyonisus contains good discussion on his army.

Basically in the time frame you set, phalangites were a really new thing. The first to bring them to Italy and Sicily was Pyrrhus and his 'new model' macedonian style army was quite a novelty. He re-equipped Tarantine troops in Macedonian fashion. But it was an unique case and much later than you cut off date. He brought pike phalanx to sicily, but again later. Carthage seems to have stuck to spear rather than pikes until a bit later than Pyrrhus. There are mentions to pikes in the 1st Punic Wars but again it is late.

An important difference in siciliot armies was the use of western  mercenaries, Iberians and Gauls are mentioned. Thus not hoplite phalanx, buut heavier and on closer ranks than peltasts.

Hope that this helps.

Offline Easy E

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1930
  • Just some guy who does stuff
    • Blood and Spectacles
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2018, 07:03:11 PM »
Thanks, I was unsure if after Pyrrhus came to town, everyone dropped their stuff and started making the change.  However, since he was not that successful, maybe they didn't bother.

Hmmm, Iberian mercenaries..... how similar were these to the ones we find in later Carthaginian and Iberian forces I wonder?  Would we see some Italic Shield wielding types?  It is probably WAY to early for that.   

On a somewhat related note, we know the Carthaginians adopted the Hoplite style formation after the Battle of Hamilcar.  Then, we know in the 1st Punic War Xanthippus reforms created an army in the "Macedonian" style.  Does this mean the Carthaginians moved away from the citizen militia hoplites (Which they did undoubtedly do, just maybe not under Xanthippus since he used a citizen levy) and create Macedonian phalanx units? Or does it simply mean a more combined arms style force?

So many questions.... I probably need to find a good timeline somewhere to help me visualize when some of this stuff was happening compared to other big events int eh ancient world.  I have a feeling I am getting my timelines all crossed up.           

Offline Arrigo

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1074
  • errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est
    • Forward HQ my new blog where you can laugh at my crappy photos!
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2018, 02:32:55 PM »
Interesting point, I will try to address them, but I am a tad rusted...

I do not think that the reason they did not adopt the pike phalanx was that Pyrrhus failed. His field battles were successful, just he lacked the strength and possibly the interest for a prolonged confrontation with Carthage.  I always got the impression that switching to the pike system was to expensive, and with the increased depth (and numbers) outside the resource of a single Poleis in Sicily. The Tarantines could do that but we are talking of possible the most powerful Greek city in Italy. Maybe Syracuse could have done it, but Hiero's Syracuse was not as powerful as it was in the past.

Carthage and the pikes... it is a bit of mess because we just rely on Polybius and Roman sources. We have little iconography and much less surviving equipment. I will present my educated guess...  :D  I think that Xanthippus introduced the pike phalanx. There are sufficient (but vague) hint that by the start of the 2nd Punic War liby-Phoenicians troops were partly equipped as Macedonian style phalangites.  Certainly there is a shift from citizen levy to a semi-professional core during the Barcid period, if not because it was the only option to fight in Spain. I got the impression they had smaller shields than one would have expected from hoplites from the refrence of re-equipping taking Roman shields.  Considering there is no reference to Carthaginian HI throwing pila, I assume the re-equipment made them into triarii of sort, so a return to hoplites.  According to professor Giovanni Brizzi, there is also  a return to triarii in post 2nd Punic War roman troops in Spain.

Celitic/Iberians. Celtic mercenaries in Sicily were more or less fighting in Gallic style. The Iberians were basically Iberian mercenaries recruited in Spain so I think there is no difference  to the ones from later Carthaginian armies. Sometime Syracuse hired them after Carthage laid them off.

As once professor Dominic Rathbone said (in Italian to a group of Italian students...) 'Ancient history is a mess' (he said 'gran casino'  lol )

Offline Easy E

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1930
  • Just some guy who does stuff
    • Blood and Spectacles
Re: Looking for Resources on Ancient Sicily
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 06:39:36 PM »
I have been reading Carthage Must Be Destroyed by Richard Miles he has some interesting "Strategic" discussion about Carthage and their role in Sicily.  He argues that the Carthaginians in fact were not interested in Sicily per se, but were instead interested in securing the North/South trade routes off of Sicily's western coast.  After the destruction of Motyas (IIRC) then Carthaginian presence in the region was almost exclusively military with very little interest in rebuilding civilian centers that were destroyed by Syracuse and other Greek settlers. 

He backs this hypothesis up some pieces of information:

1. The lack of trade goods with a Sicilian origin flowing through Carthage per archaeological and paleobiological evidence
2. The lack of civilian foundations and remains in Carthaginian aligned cities
3. The port of Lilybauem(IIRC) (Not a re-built Motyas) was built almost exclusively as a fortress with few civilian workspaces or homes present
4. Most remains found in the post-Motyas period were of watchtowers, ditches, walls, and other military structures with military detritus

Therefore, the Carthaginian presence in Sicily was to create a defense in depth of the vital western ports as way stations and re-supply points on the ways to Sardinia and other points of more importance to the Carthaginians trade networks.