Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?

[olicana]

This is a subject I have largely chosen to avoid, because it's simpler that way, but, I would like your views.

I think it is Oman that asserts that, after Agnadello in 1509, the Italians thought pike fighting unlucky and went for shot armed 'nationals' instead.

If that's the case, after 1509, what did Venice do for close combat troops?

The Papacy hired mercenary Swiss on occasion, and the Milanese (in their brief moments of 'independence') did the same. What of the rest - did the Italians actually use the pike to any great extent?

How long did the close combat troops, armed with polearm (and oval shield) such as bill and glaive, survive into the 16th century, and in what kind of numbers?

I'm sure M. Mallet would help me here, but I don't have that particular book.

Give it your best shot,

James

[Metternich]

Below quoted from the venerable George Gush's Renaissance Armies:

The arrival of the Swiss in 1494 indicated the possibilities of massed shock infantry; the condottiere Vitellozzo Vitelli was the first to train Italian pikemen using Swiss tactics, and there were attempts to do the same in the early 16th Century. Venice, firstly, had armies particularly strong in infantry, and at Agnadello, 1509, where they had over 20,000 infantry to only 2,000 gendarmes and 3,000 Italian light horse and stradiots, they employed several thousand Romagnol mercenaries with the pike, dressed in red slashed with white, to support their militia who were probably mainly arquebusiers.

Secondly, Florence attempted to turn to a revived citizen militia for defense (an experiment which much affected Machiavelli's views). In 1506 they had 10,000 infantry, trained by professional officers, and composed of 70 percent pikemen, ten percent arquebusiers and 20 percent halberdiers, crossbowmen and sword and buckler men.

(They later planned to raise 500 light cavalry, ten percent lancers, the rest crossbowmen.) In their final bid for independence (1528-30) the Florentines tried to get as many arquebusiers as possible, and of 3,000 City infantry raised, 1,700 were arquebusiers, 300 halberdiers, and 1,000 pike-men; only 60 had the new muskets. The 10,000 country militia may have been differently armed.

The ill success of such ventures (the Venetian pikes were slaughtered at Agnadello and the Florentines failed) may have discouraged the further development of Italian pike infantry. The Italian states' troops were usually fighting as part of alliances (such as the Holy League against France) where Landsknechts or other foreigners could provide the solid infantry base, or else Italian soldiers were being hired for other people's armies—invariably being called on for their national specialties of skirmishing with arquebus or musket on foot, or mounted with crossbow or arquebus (though Italian men-at-arms were also used).

The most famous of these mercenaries, and indeed one of the Elite forces of the later Italian wars, was the Bande Nere (Black Band) of Giovanni de Medici. Typically, this consisted of about 300 mounted and 3,000 foot arquebusiers (some of the latter may have been provided with poor mounts to turn them into an early species of dragoon or mounted infantryman). Few if any had pikes. (The name is often said to have been derived from black mourning bands or sashes worn by these mercenaries after the death of Pope Leo X, but this sounds a little like a rationalization for a name which was very widely used of mercenary groups at this time.) The only independent Italian army to survive into the 1530s was that of Venice, though in the 1550s Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy raised a well-organized force of infantry, about 1/3 pikemen and 2/3 arquebusiers, in centuries, 400 man companies, and six company Colonellas. The great majority of Italian troops later in our period would, however, be serving, often with distinction, in other armies, especially those of Spain and the Empire.

[olicana]

Thank you for your time in making that reply.

That pretty well sums up what I know - we've obviously read the same books.

I think Venice is possibly the key state in knowing about Italian infantry. It was big enough to face off forays by the Empire into Italy on it's own, with varying degrees of success. Given the Empire would use Landsknechts, did Venice put pike into the field to face them? The difficulty in this, for me, is that there were no major battles between the two to have any kind of OOB, most situations being resolved by siege.

Perhaps I need to buy Mallet's book The Military Organisation of a Renaissance State: Venice C.1400 to 1617, it's just the cost - £50+ - for a book I don't know the relevant contents of. Would it add to my knowledge, of this particular question, in proportion to the money outlay? Now, that is a difficult question, and if I could simply buy the book without thinking about it I would.

[Sparrow]

Hi - can’t claim any great knowledge re the Italian Wars (C17th more my thing!) but just wondered if the terrain in Italy might have something to do with the seeming reluctance by Italians to adopt the pike en masse  successfully? The Appenines and the Dolomites might not be hugely conducive to massed pike actions? The pike is, also, not an ideal siege weapon. Not sure if this viewpoint “has legs” but wonder if, as wargamers, we often look at historic decisions too much through the viewpoint of the big battle rather than the day to day drudgery and realities of campaign (this is certainly a common problem amongst many ECW wargamers and rule writers). Will be interested to read what others think (not least as it may expand my limited knowledge of the Italian Wars - a period I’ve always fancied trying inspired by Olicana’s fantastic collection!).

[Peter d]

I don't have much to contribute beyond what's stated above.  However, great topic of conversation and/or debate.  I suspect we could spend a pleasant evening discussing this over many bottles of Chianti.

Given the lack of hard sources, I'd say go with what you feel is right.  My own cut is that Italians mostly fought for the French or a Imperialists as cavalry or light troops, because that's what the employers wanted!  I also figure that mercenary Italian pikemen are not impossible especially for an Italian state.  In most cases captains tend to pick the best tools for the job once the fighting gets real rather than stick with trafional weapons.

I'll be watching this thread.
Cheers, Peter

[whiskey priest]

According to Mallett and Hale's 'The Military Organisation of a Renaissance state', Venice couldn't recruit from it's on mainland possessions (terra-firma) because most of it was being occupied by their enemies (although they did gain most of it back by 1517. The Venetians instead hired 'Foreigners' for their infantry. The list given in the book includes Captains and Companies from Piedmont, Calabria, Alessandria, Pavia, Bologna, Siena, Perugia, Naples, Genoa, Parma, Faenza, Pesaro, Prato, Pisa, Pistoia and Cortona. The greatest number of recruits would have come from the Marche, Romagna, and Umbria. Increasingly they recruited men from Corsica, Dalmatia and Albania. In 1521 a relationship was established with Graubünden (Grisons) who were not part of the Swiss confederation and supplied troops to Venice for the next hundred years. Venice also recruited small amounts of Landsknechts (seldom more than 1000) and took in some French 'adventurers' (6000 in 1517) and sometimes Spanish deserters (1849 in the same year).  The book doesn't really discuss who is armed with what but I'd imagine 20 years after the French first appeared on the peninsula and 40 years after the Swiss kick the Duke of Burgundy's butt, a large proportion would be pike armed alongside crossbowmen and arquebusiers.

[Sparrow]

I suspect we could spend a pleasant evening discussing this over many bottles of Chianti

What a wonderful idea!

Joking aside, really interesting what Whiskey Priest says about how occupied recruiting grounds affected army composition. Is this why Venice used so many Stradiots (or is this more to do with the extent of their “colonial settlements” on the Adriatic coastilne)?

[FierceKitty]

Not sure hilly Italy is that much of a deterrent to developing pike units, given that they reached their zenith in precipitous Switzerland.

[Sparrow]

Not sure hilly Italy is that much of a deterrent developing to pike units, given that they reached their zenith in precipitous Switzerland.

That’s a very good point!

[smirnoff]

Is this why Venice used so many Stradiots?

Not really, they were used in the wars against the Ottomans then introduced into western conflicts. This is a good overview with a useful bibliography
https://byzantineoplomachia.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/stradioti-balkan-mercenaries-of-fifteenth-and-sixteenth-century-in-italy/

[whiskey priest]

The Stradiots initially came to Italy in the service of Naples under Scanderbeg and his decedents were given lands and titles in the south. Venice initially saw him as a nuisance and only changed their attitude to him and the Albanians when they realised they'd make a useful ally in Venice's own war against the Ottomans.

[olicana]

On the point about Italy being hilly. When thinking about Italy we tend to think about the advance of the allies up the country in WW2, where the positions chosen by the Germans were very rough country dominated by the natural strong points of the Apennines but, in fact, the vast majority of Italian Wars battles took place in the north, in the region of the Po valley -



Looks like pretty good pike country to me.

[whiskey priest]

If you think about all those Heavily armoured Condottieri romping about then the flat lands in the North would make sense.

[Sparrow]

Cheers Smirnoff - have put it on my “to read” list!

Yep - given the flatter terrain in the North, pike makes a lot more sense (you’re right, Oilcana, one does think first of Monte Cassioi type terrain etc!).

[Phillius]

I'm not sure about Gush's assertion that pike fighting became unpopular with the Italians after Aganadello. If you look at the Spanish army in the Low Countries in the second half of the century, they had an Italian contingent that included pikes. At Ceresole in 1544 the Italian contingent of Sanseverino in the Imperialist army was 6,000 strong, and fought off an extended assault by French "light" cavalry; so probably included pikes.

I think there is definitely evidence that the Italians preferred ranged weapons, but I doubt they stopped using pikes altogether. In his treatise on the Black Bands in the Neapolitan campaign of 1528, Mauritzio Arfioli goes into some detail on the negotiations between the captains of the Black Band and their Florentine employers, who insisted on them increasing the number of pikes in their contracts. Apparently the Florentine government believed they would stand up on the battlefield much better with pikes for support, but the captains believed the pikes would force them into defensive tactics.

So from my perspective, shot should outnumber pike in Italian units, but there is no reason to believe Italians stopped using pikes altogether.