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Author Topic: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?  (Read 11696 times)

Offline olicana

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2018, 08:53:30 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure about Gush's assertion that pike fighting became unpopular with the Italians after Aganadello.

Ah, it was Gush. I thought it was Oman. I stand corrected, I knew I'd read it somewhere.

Your info on the Black Bands is interesting as it has quite a late date (it's about as late as I game the wars). My info, from memory, on the Medici Black Band (assuming it's the same one) is that (before 1528) it numbered around 3000 arquebusier, around 300 of whom were mounted. I know that at least one source (I don't have it) credits the Band with a proportion of pike but, I can't remember how many, or when they were recruited - Phillius, do you know?

James


Offline Arlequín

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2018, 06:48:58 AM »
I'm not sure pikes were ever actually in favour, there was no tradition for them in Italy, as was otherwise the case in the Alps, Swabia and Flanders.

Apart from Florence's attempt to resurrect the classic army of the Roman Republic, but swapping spear for pike and the mercenaries of (but not necessarily from) the Romagna, I'm not certain anyone adopted the pike before the second quarter of the 16th Century.

Milan vs Venice in the 15th Century had been a war of light infantry and sieges across the Val Padana, when it wasn't one of heavy cavalry vs itself on the rest of the Po Plain. Most Italian states had mercenary men at arms (and increasing numbers of mercenary infantry with them) as their core, backed by a mostly crossbow-armed rural militia and communal militias of a few polearm-wielding troops and yet more crossbows.

After the Battle of Nancy in 1477, the Swiss 'style' became 'the thing' across Europe North of the Alps, but it wasn't until the French invasion of 1494 that anyone saw the need for them in Italy, apart from the Spanish. Don't forget that even the Swiss themselves weren't predominantly pikes until around the turn of the 16th Century.

Offline smirnoff

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2018, 07:18:27 AM »
At Arbedo (1422), to face the Swiss pike/polearm squares, there were no pikemen in the Milanese army; the dismounted Men at Arms used ‘pikes’ (probably lances or the traditional Lanze Longhe or long spear). It does beg the question why you’d get the men at arms off their horses to do it if you have pike infantry to hand?

The soldier in the San Romano painting (done 3 years after the battle and from reports, Uccello was not an eye witness) may be carrying a replacement lance for a Man at Arms or it could be a Lanze Longhe, it is not necessarily a pike.  There is no depiction of formed ‘pikemen’ as part of the main battle, they do seem to be incidental figures and in all probability are carrying the Lanze Longhe.

Bruni, chancellor of Florence (died 1444) had written on the art of war and how to improve the Florentine army and never mentioned pikemen.

Guicciardini wrote that Vitellozzo Vitelli  the condottieri was the first to train Italian soldiers with the pike in 1497.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 07:48:57 AM by smirnoff »

Offline whiskey priest

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 08:44:47 AM »
I always think about the example of Scotland when it comes to the desire to arm your infantry with pike. Before Flodden James IV was hiring french advisors to come over and train his infantry in the european style of Pike warfare. If poor, isolated Scotland could do it then it's not beyond the imagination that it was going on in Italy as well. Put yourself in the place of an Italian city state. You have to hand out new contracts to mercenary infantry captains/companies to fight your wars. Do you A) Hire troops armed with Roncon (the traditional Italian bill) or B) Hire troops armed with the Pike. I know which I'd be doing. Knowing this, any Italian captain worth his salt will know that in order to get the best contracts he needs to make sure he is offering his employer an up to date, cutting edge (pardon the pun) military service. By paying some of the French adventurers, that were infesting italy at the time, to help train his troops the captain is making use of the resources that are available. In fact many captains would have fought for the French and therefore gained some first hand experience in the new form of warfare. The French invasion of 1494 had horrified the Italians and they had realised that there form of warfare wasn't up to the dealing with the aggression and martial skills of the French. They had been playing catch up ever since.

Offline malto cortese

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2018, 10:14:50 AM »
Hi, I have a limited experience with this period but I did some rather heavy reading on the one war I was interested in - Siena's rebellion against Charles V and the subsequent war against the Hapsburg Empire in which Siena allied with France and the Emperor with the Florentines (1552-1555, if you stop at the capitulation of Siena, or 1559 if you include the last resistance in Montalcino, where Sienese diehards set up a government in exile - yes, I know what you are thinking, they chose it because of the Brunello. But it's not true as the Brunello was invented much later, in the late 19th century...). Both sides seem to have heavily relied on firearms and fortifications, and this was mostly siege warfare, with ruses, ambushes, and lots of maneuvering. There were, however, a few pitched battles, and both sides seem to have used pikes - mostly hired ones. As some one else in the thread already mentioned, there were "grisons" from Switzerland fighting for Siena, as well as Gascons in the French contingent under Blaise de Monluc. And I assume the Spaniards had their lot of pikes as well: in the infamous (in case you did not get it yet, I am from Siena) paintings in which Vasari, always eager to please his Florentine masters, portrays the "war for Siena" in Palazzo Vecchio, you do see lots of pikes in the Battle of Scannagallo, where the Franco-Sienese under Piero Strozzi were defeated by the Hispano-Florentine (August 1554)

https://www.florencewithguide.com/wp/assets/2015/04/Salone-dei-cinquecento_battaglia-scannagallo.jpg

Jan van Straet also shows an interesting episode of the war, the initial night attack on Porta Camollia, which gives you a better understanding of how the war was carried out - surprise raids and sieges rather than pitched battles:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ebr7XzXLkLs/VTeJcw0ehwI/AAAAAAAALN8/4R96XcdXEaw/s1600/001.jpg

The best book in English on this war is the old one by Simon Pepper and Nicolas Adams, Firearms & Fortifications: Military Architecture and Siege Warfare in Sixteenth-Century Siena

Then there is a large literature in Italian, for those who are interested I would be happy to share it - just drop me a separate message as I do not want to clutter the thread with information that most readers might not be interested in. Unfortunately, I have read most of it trying to figure out the ratio of pikes to firearms in order to build a proper Sienese army, but there is very limited information. There are references to bands of arquebusiers from Siena, and to skirmishes with swords and buckles, which makes me think that the internal militia of the city was mostly equipped with firearms and swords/halberds, while the pikes might have been mostly hired ones. But it is just an assumption...
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Offline SteveBurt

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2018, 10:27:17 AM »
That’s a very good point!

Also, many of the battles of the Italian Wars were fought in the Po Valley, which is not hilly, but does have plenty of watercourses and marshes.

Offline Phillius

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2018, 07:24:43 PM »
Arfaoili includes a graph of the make up of the bands in 1527 to 1528 -

November 1527 - 28% pike
December 1527 - 38% pike
January 1528 - 45% pike

Judging by this rapid increase, there must have been Italians around to recruit into these roles. And, there were presumably experienced captains and sergeants around  to undertake the training and organization. As the bands were being recruited under contract to Florence, I would assume that the majority of these new recruits were Italian, as the League of Cognac already had its forces in the field, so available Germans would presumably, mostly, already be employed. Arfaioli also quotes a purchase request to the Ten in Florence for 1,000 pikes from the captains leading the Black Bands. This is around the time that the League army is starting to move south.

There is a lot of discussion about how the Italians and Spanish were primarily shooters, and only latterly came to the pike. And that generally there was no mass availability of unemployed poor to fill the ranks of the military (as in Germany), so there was no justification to build pike units that could not be resourced properly. So maybe, earlier in the period, Italian pikes were a relative rarity, but not an impossibility.

And there is always the logical question, why bother forming your own pike when Germans are cheap enough and available?

I've tried to attach the Arfaioli treatise, but it was too big. It is a great read (well I enjoyed it), and a bit of an eye opener. Happy to share it, PM me, though I found it on the web easily enough.

Offline olicana

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2018, 07:35:48 PM »
Thank you. the treatise has been downloaded.

James

Offline jcspqr

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2018, 04:35:25 PM »
After reading Arfaoili, I concluded that for pike and shotte I would organize the Bande Nere as 3 units of shotte and 2 units of pike.  They should probably have 2 units of mounted arquebusers as well.

Jim

Offline FierceKitty

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Re: Italian Wars - Venetian pike, Italian pike in general?
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 02:15:06 PM »
That’s a very good point!

Also a disturbing bit of evidence that I'm developing senile dyslexia!
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