compare Rangers of Shadow Deep and Sellswords a& Spellslingers

[andyskinner]

As cooperative games, how do these games compare?  I know people have a lot more experience with one than the other so far.  I'm not looking for "this one is better than that one", but where do you think each one would shine?  Do they take very different approaches?  In what ways do those different approaches matter?

thanks
andy

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

A long post.  Please be aware that I have only just received Rangers of Shadow Deep and only played one game, so far.

Both games are designed for cooperative or solo play.
Both are designed for a small band of characters.  In SS&SS all the characters could be on equal footing.  In Rangers there is one main character and then some lesser companions.
Both systems have a system for character generation and customisation.  There are more options/variety in SS&SS. The Rangers system is easier and more elegant and encourages a balanced approach to skills - you can't put all your points into weapon skills only. 
Charcter progression is more structured and restrictive in Rangers; with each level increase it is mandated what type of advance you can gain - basic statistics, skills, special abilities/spells etc.  In SS&SS you can choose anything as long as you have the points.
Character special abilities in Rangers can be extremely useful, but each ability can only be used once in a game - I like this aspect as it gives an epic feeling to games when your character delivers one mighty, heroic blow against a major enemy.  It is much like those unusual events in books that are legendary - the leap of Beren, Fingolfin hewing the leg of Morgoth, Turin thrusting Gurthang into Glaurung. These are things that just don't happen every day.
In Rangers the companions can progress, but this is more restricted but also more simple to track experience than for the Ranger character.  This saves book keeping and also ensures that it is clear who the hero is and who are only the bit players.
Monsters and characters work very differently from each other in SS&SS making it difficult to play the monsters if you wanted an adversarial game - in this respect SS&SS is a more pure coop/solo game.
Rangers could easily be played as an adversarial game - creatures have the same set of stats as characters.

Both games have have cards for random events.

Rangers has a very structured game turn: Ranger, followed by monsters, the ranger's companions, then events.  All characters and monsters get two activations.  Moves and turns are more predictable.
SS&SS, I think, has the better system here.  Characters can choose how many activations they want to attempt - one to three - and then roll to see if they are successful.  Any failed activation leads to an event card being drawn with that event being played immediately.  This might be a monster activation, falling into a trap, or some special event.  A full turn here might look like: Character. Monster.  Character.  Character.  Character.  Monster. Monster.  The randomness causes more tension and you have to plan a little more carefully.
Rangers does allow for limited group moves allowing characters to keep together.  SS&SS does not.

Combat itself is easier in Rangers, usually just requiring a pair of dice to be rolled.  In SS&SS you may meed to roll a die three times in succession to get an outcome from one combat.  Damage/hits in Rangers requires more book keeping as the hip points of characters/monsters and the damage done in combat is a lot more variable and the high number of hit points means you can't track damage easily with a counter or dice (a starting character typically has 18 hit points.  A successful combat may result in anything from 1 to 20+ damage. 
In Rangers there is less of a gulf in capabilities between monsters and heroes, and combat can be deadlier for the heroes.

Rangers is relatively magic light (yay!).  SS&SS can have very powerful wizards (boo, hiss).

Both rules have plenty of scenarios.  Rangers has a nice campaign of linked scenarios. 

At the moment it is hard to say which one I prefer.  There is much in Rangers that I like, but I think the activation/event system in SS&SS is superior and at the moment I suspect I will use Selllswords as my game but use bits and pieces from Rangers for some house rules.

[andyskinner]

Thanks.  For co-op Rangers, do both players get a Ranger?  It isn't that the player you are playing with has to play some of the supporting characters, right?

andy

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Yes, each player gets a ranger and some minions.


Edit:
I am being naughty and writing short notes while at work (luckily I am self employed).
Further to the above brief comment and my earlier post, I suppose the big difference is how much chaos/unpredictability do you want.  Rangers is more predictable in it's game turn sequence, but possibly less predictable in combat. 

[andyskinner]

Thank you for your thoughts.  I imagine I'd like the overall gameplay of SS&SS, but I do like what I have picked up about background of RoSD.

We've got plenty to do with the things currently on my list, so I don't know when/if we'll get to these games.  But my wife is my most frequent opponent, and I _think_ she'd like the idea of us playing on the same side against the game.

andy

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Both games are good and as they only require a few figures (probably a few more for Sellswords) it would be very easy to play both. 

[mweaver]

Interesting thread.  I have tried and liked SS&SS. I have not previously heard of Rangers of Shadow Deep.  I will have to look into it.

My favorite fantasy skirmish remains Mordheim (not originally designed for coop play, but we do it fairly frequently).

-Michael

[Banesfinger]

I'm not sure which "to hit/damage" system I like better?  Both are d20 based, and both can be "swingy".

In SS the player attacks by rolling a d20 against a Target Number (the DL or "Danger Level" of the monster). This DL ranges from DL5 (kobolds) to DL16 (Ice Giant).  The average monster has about a DL10.  The players can add up to +5 to their roll, based on their skill level (Archery or Fighter). Often, this works out to about a 50%-50% of hitting an enemy.
If the Player fails his roll, the enemy automatically hits the player (not an 'opposed' roll).
To mitigate being damaged, the player can then roll their "Combat Dodge" skill (vs ranged weapons).  If that doesn't work (or you are in melee) the Player can roll his "Armor" skill AND/OR his "Shield" to avoid all damage.   

Ranger uses opposed rolls: Both the Player and the opponent roll d20's.  Each combatant adds their "Fight" ability.  Exactly like SS, the player's "Fight" stat can't increase beyond +5.  The "Fight" stat for monsters ranges from +0 (giant rat) to +5 (Terror Wing).  So also like SS, this works out to a 50%-50% chance of winning the opposed roll.
The difference here is that the 'winning' opposed roll has to beat the foe's Armor stat.  An unarmoured foe has an Armor value of 10, while a ranger in heavy armor + Shield is 13. The highest monster Armor is 14 (Terror Wing).  For every point you beat your opponent's Armor by, is how much damage they take.

So in SS, someone will ALWAYS hit, for each roll in combat - but the dodge/armor/shield rolls usually nullify the attack, which can draw out the combat for a long time if players are well armored.
In Rangers, someone will always 'win' the battle, but about 50% of the time the roll isn't good enough to beat the Armor's value, thus drawing out the combat.

[Lord Borjado]

Very interesting thread, It lights many questions. Thanks!

[Munindk]

You all sold me on Rangers

I do like the idea of a chance to take extra activations and the risk of complications/more enemies. Could you port that over to Rangers, without breaking the system?

Also, can you create your own monsters/races for Rangers?

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

You all sold me on Rangers

I do like the idea of a chance to take extra activations and the risk of complications/more enemies. Could you port that over to Rangers, without breaking the system?

Also, can you create your own monsters/races for Rangers?

I have done this as a hybrid of Sellswords and Rangers.  As a solo game it works well. It clearly changes the game a lot.  I use the Sellsword event cards when I do this.  I will experiment more when I am back from.my holiday.