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December 12, 2018, 05:16:06 PM

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Author Topic: Tsuba new Freikorps  (Read 1454 times)

Offline levied troop

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2018, 07:43:25 PM »
Been toying with this period for a while, nothing to show for it but failed buildings and undercoated figures, but for rules I thought that Triumph and Tragedy would work well, not least because:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=g9ipblqhppcrsoglv0sbsiara7&topic=70521.0

I’ve used T&T for VBCW and RCW and it’s worked well.

Looking forward to these new figures and the Police would be very welcome.

Edit: and yes, as Arlequin points out, structuring the scenarios to include the political/social goals rather than just number of dead is the way to go.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:46:26 PM by levied troop »
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Offline huevans

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2018, 01:49:31 AM »
I'm not familiar w T&T and the link is dead.

If I don't miss my guess, the Germany 1919 troop types would have different skill sets than the SCW leftists. In Spain, almost no one had military training outside the Foreign Legion. In Germany, I would guess that 90%+ of guys under 40 had army experience by 1919. Universal conscription plus 4 years of total war. Whether the leftist guys cared to take orders and do what they were told might be another question.

OTOH they would probably have been committed. Anyone who didn't care much about politics simply melted away and went home when his unit reached Germany. Only the hardcore lefties and righties kept fighting.

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2018, 04:06:27 AM »
The modern left vs right devide is also kind of off. Many troops of the Freikorp were not just proto-fascist. (Of course their were many who were)
They came home from the war, and seen a bunch of red banners with folks trying to destroy traditional institutions, while the government and police set passively by.
Then combine that with say the excess of the Bavarian commune and you have a resape for many centrists to take up arms.

As for the volks marine divison, they really didn't seem interested in the revolution as a whole and as pointed out, sat out the Spartakist revolt.

Now also don't forget the Freikorp was eventually fought to a standstill in the east by Estonia and Latvia national forces. Before being forced to return to German by treaty.
"Peace" is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.

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Offline Arlequín

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2018, 06:27:00 AM »
If my figures are correct, the German Army was 4.5m men at the Armistice, while the adult male population was around 11.3m (67m total pop), so around 40% of fighting age men had served.

Certainly though that was different to the SCW, where men with military training were few and far between in 1936. However the SCW was a civil war of escalating military action, with each side introducing conscription and at their largest boasted formal armies of around 0.5m each. This was opposed to there being a military of just 125k in 1936.

As an indication of militancy amongst the German left, 300,000 workers took part in the general strike of 1917. Twelve million were involved in the one of March 1920. Not every worker carried a rifle, but then neither did many of the people killed by Freikorps units; just heckling was sufficient to draw fire.

The Red Ruhr Army that formed in response to the Kapp Putsch was c. 50k strong (that's how many rifles were confiscated), with some 300k supporting non-coms. Strength of the Reichswehr in 1920 was 350,000 (later reduced to 100k), some 250k were in the various Freikorps units. I've no idea of how many of either went to the Ruhr, however the Freikorps/Reichswehr lost c. 250, the Reds some 1000, not all of whom were combatants.

Offline huevans

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2018, 11:06:08 PM »
This is my first question re the fighting. It appears that the Reds had overwhelming popular support, but far fewer actually showed up for the fighting. IIRC, the popular strike in Berlin a few weeks before the Spartacist coup was 700,000 people. And the provisional government fled to Weimar, which was conservative and garrisoned by Freikorps troops, in order to avoid Berlin and the large amount of Red support there.

It's difficult to see why Germany didn't go the way of Russia, given the apparent amount of Rec support.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2018, 11:28:52 PM »
I'd imagine it was a lack of weapons that was the limiting factor. The Army had almost wholly returned as formed disciplined bodies and still under their officers in Germany. In Russia the Army had mutinied and was pretty much the Revolution. Somewhat of a generalisation, but essentially the difference between the two.

Offline warrenpeace

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2018, 05:08:07 AM »
Just watched a one hour youtube video of a talk by Tim Mulligan in 2013 to the Western Front Association re the German naval mutinies.

The Wilhelmshaven mutiny in 1918 never even spread to shore. The one in Kiel did, and included some soldiers. There doesn't seem to have been much of a political motive. Only about 7% to 8% of the sailors had read the political pamphlet circulating in the fleet. Differences in quality of food on the big ships, and sailors overhearing plans by the officers for suicidal and pointless final battle triggered the mutiny. Red agitation not so much.

The People's Naval Division had only about 1800 active men out of a theoretical 3500. And 2/3 to 3/4 of them weren't even sailors, but instead were civilians and disbanded soldiers who joined up. The People's Naval Division seemed to be more interested in occupying buildings to insure that the government would pay them than in joining an actual revolution.

Anecdotes such as the one about revolutionaries delaying occupation of a building until the proper authorization was obtained and about revolutionaries respecting "keep off the grass" signs makes one wonder whether or not there was a critical mass of Germans who were temperamentally suited to revolution.

I'm hard pressed to see a point in time when a real revolution might have started. Clearly 1919 was too early. Perhaps it might have happened in 1920 after the Kapp Putsch, if the general strike hadn't been so successful. Or perhaps the late 20's when the center was collapsing and politics were becoming more extreme. It's difficult to see any point at which the Reds ever had the organization, leadership, arms, or ammunition to make a viable revolution.
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Offline Arlequín

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2018, 01:16:16 PM »
Seems an accurate summation to me. My impression is that much of the flashpoints were relatively spontaneous reactions to 'something' and rarely with adequate planning. The Freikorps were the fire brigades sent to put the flames of possible revolution out; some fires were bigger and spread better than others.

Offline levied troop

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2018, 06:21:42 PM »
I'm not familiar w T&T and the link is dead.

So it is, my apologies.  I have the original if you'd like it forwarded.

As to T&T, it's based around small groups each with a very distinct leader but the child thread in Pulp should have enough to give you the outliners.

Offline Arteis

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Offline carlos marighela

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2018, 07:31:46 AM »
And a jolly tune to commorate the works of the Grüne Polizei:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FMT4dJ_7WWs

One of the best Brecht/Weil collaborations and a fabulous anti-war song.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 07:33:27 AM by carlos marighela »
Eu sempre te amarei
Onde estiver estarei
Oh meu Mengooo

Tu és time de tradição,
RAÇA, AMOR e PAIXÃO
Oh meu Mengooo!

Offline Hammers

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2018, 08:24:23 AM »
In addition to the stahlhelm Freikorps, they also released a K66 Schupo Sonderwagen 21 armored car.

http://www.empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart51.htm

That really is an ugly pieces of machinery.

Offline ts

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2018, 02:12:41 PM »
The different Freikorps were organized,armed and run by General Groener, the second in command of the Reichswehr.
He made a secret deal with the Socialdemocrats (Government) (Noske), the Socialdemocrats would fight the Communists and then Reichwehr would provide the muscles through the Freikorps, a very smart way to avoid the Russian turmoil and civil war without involving the army.
The weapons came from secret Reichwehr depots, Roehm was one of those, who distributed the weapons. The government paid salaries and such for the Freikorps.
The first Freikorps were picked, former front-line soldiers, later mainly students (very often law-students). With several universities it was a demand that the students joined right-wing organizations like the Freikorps to be allowed studying.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2018, 05:57:48 PM »
The Freikorps were known as the 'Black Reichswehr' and enabled Germany to have an army in excess of the 100,000 allowed under the Versailles Treaty.

Offline Arteis

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Re: Tsuba new Freikorps
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2018, 05:21:09 AM »
The Netflix TV drama "Babylon Berlin" (a must-see for anyone interested in interwar Germany) includes a brief shot of an armoured car in the 'BlutMai' demonstration scene:



Berlin police are shown correctly uniformed in blue rather than green: