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Author Topic: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum  (Read 1683 times)

Offline SHARPE52

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Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« on: December 07, 2018, 03:16:25 PM »
Hi All,
I am wondering why Saxon Army in Dux Bellorum is not allowed to use the Monk special rule.
Obviously it's quite easy to amend the Army List and use it all the same however I am curious to know the ratio behind that.
I hope someone will give me his/her comments.
TIA
Marco

Offline macmod

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 05:07:39 PM »
The Saxons were pagans in this time period

Offline SHARPE52

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 06:08:34 PM »
Thank you for your comment
The rule is named "Monks" but include any kind of priest, heathen shaman and so on.
It's funny that while most people in that era were supported by ministers, Saxons weren't.

Offline TWD

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 06:40:33 PM »
The Saxons were pagans in this time period
That was going to be my answer but then I checked and the rules description includes non-christian options. Dux Bellirum also covers that later period when the Saxons had embraced Christianity.
Maybe Dan felt they were less often seen as part of Saxon fighting forces than in some of the other armies?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 01:32:25 PM by TWD »

Offline macmod

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Offline TWD

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2018, 01:41:19 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chester

Thanks for the link, though I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make.
Your link shows that (at least according to Bede) Saxons killed monks during at least one battle in the period.

But as noted above the rule 'Monks'  includes all sorts of holy men (not just Christian  monks). In addition the rules cover the period to AD793 when the Saxons had adopted Christianity (as evidenced by Viking pagans raiding Saxon churches)

Have to admit I'd never noticed it wasn't available to Saxons. I'd house rule it if you want to take them, it's unlikely to be game breaking :)

Offline SHARPE52

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2018, 05:35:29 PM »
I absolutely share TWD opinion.
I don't think the adoption of the Monk rule by Saxon or Pictish may in some way break the sense of the rules.
Frankly speaking I was hoping Dan Mersey who sometimes is attending this forum could say his own word on this matter.
P.S. Many thanks to macmod for the interesting link provided.
Marco

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 05:05:26 AM »
I think it's meant to cover a body of holy men acting in concert, rather than individual shamen, priests and what-have-you within warbands; the Battle of Chester is pretty much 'the' example. Despite the blurb that pretty much excludes all but Christian monks.

Limiting it to Britons, Welsh and Irish, who were all solidly Christian (if not the right kind of Christians) throughout the era, seems legitimate at first glance, but it does exclude King/Saint Oswald's Northumbrians, who are likely to have had them at Heavenfield.

Given the scarcity of solid sources in the era, hard and fast special rules are a little dubious in their application. I would have no issue with more liberal use of all of them across all armies, with the odd exception.

Offline Irregular Wars Nic

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Re: Use of Monks in Dux Bellorum
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 07:44:24 AM »
I think it's meant to cover a body of holy men acting in concert, rather than individual shamen, priests and what-have-you within warbands; the Battle of Chester is pretty much 'the' example. Despite the blurb that pretty much excludes all but Christian monks.

Limiting it to Britons, Welsh and Irish, who were all solidly Christian (if not the right kind of Christians) throughout the era, seems legitimate at first glance, but it does exclude King/Saint Oswald's Northumbrians, who are likely to have had them at Heavenfield.

Given the scarcity of solid sources in the era, hard and fast special rules are a little dubious in their application. I would have no issue with more liberal use of all of them across all armies, with the odd exception.

What he said. :D