Warhammer 40k New AP system.

[matthais-mouse]

Howdy everyone,
Well if this has been posted else where I am sorry to bring it up again but its really twisting my nipplets.

What the hell is with the new 40k AP system? A modifier?
Plus why nothing for a boltgun?

This is mainly because my cousin keeps having a go at me for deciding that current edition is not for me because of multiple changes that make no sense to me and just really P&^% me off.

Now for example, I had chosen to paint up a small imperial fist army for 2nd edition, because everyone I knew was playing it, so when kill team came out for current edition and my cousin made a tempestus scions for that as well as current edition he invited me to play.

And what did I notice?
That space marines are now crap. I mean dont get me wrong I dont do the whole power gaming thing or even competitive in anyway, but the fact that they have crapped on so much that the space marines were famed for in the past just grinds my gears.
But I felt like I may as well have taken guardsmen or a horde tyranid army. I had NOTHING good to say about the experiences of the games.

Is it just me or does anyone else see this problem?

Am I not seeing right? Am I? Whats going on?

[Diablo Jon]

Normal marines have been toned down to make way for the uber marines (primaris), in 8th edition, who now feel more like Marines should be. Two wounds each AP-1 bolt rifles I've decided to not bother with old style marines anymore and just collect Primaris in 8th edition.

[matthais-mouse]

Normal marines have been toned down to make way for the uber marines (primaris), in 8th edition, who now feel more like Marines should be. Two wounds each AP-1 bolt rifles I've decided to not bother with old style marines anymore and just collect Primaris in 8th edition.

See this is what I feared.
The worst thing is I understand this and it stresses me out (never been good with change)
I even discussed this with my cousin haha. I re did my marine list in kill team to be primaris and it did feel right.

I guess im making a mountain out of a mole hill 

[Diablo Jon]

See this is what I feared.
The worst thing is I understand this and it stresses me out (never been good with change)
I even discussed this with my cousin haha. I re did my marine list in kill team to be primaris and it did feel right.

I guess im making a mountain out of a mole hill 

No I hear yah. I can get really wound up by big fluff changes like the complete change to the Necron's background or the whole AoS ret-con which I hated. I have to admit the whole background to the Primaris marines stinks pretty bad IMO I just pretend the Primaris are the way marines always where 

[Pictors Studio]

They didn't really ret-con Warhammer with AoS, they just advanced the story line. 

The new edition of 40K has a lot that I don't like.  I'm surprised that coming out of 2nd edition you think it makes marines much worse though.  In 2nd edition marines were crap, at least your basic marines were.  Terminators and devastator squads were where it was at.  Tactical squads were nearly useless.

3rd edition was the big change in the game where they made tactical squads really useful additions to your army rather than just a filler squad, which you didn't even need in 2nd edition. 

The marines were tough as nails, the bolters shredded lesser armoured enemy units, a sgt. with a powerfist was a pretty tough cookie in close combat even against the most monstrous creatures and pounded unsupported enemy characters into goo.

With the latest edition, the balance has shifted in favour of larger horde armies I feel, with vehicles becoming significantly more powerful too. 

The Primaris marines are pretty tough though, although my Primaris force got wiped out easily by a Kroot mercenary force of about equal size without much trouble several times. 

The big changes are the AP, which modifies rather than eliminates armour saves, which I don't like.  A bolt gun should shred a guardsman most of the time, their armour shouldn't save them at all.

And the vehicles.  Now a lascannon can't kill a rhino with one shot.  A multi-melta is only slightly more useful than a lascannong and can''t one shot kill a rhino either. 

On the plus side bolters can have an effect on vehicles, which is nice and fluffy, but so do lasguns, which is not. 

On the whole we still play 3rd edition for the VAST majority of our 40K games.  Simpler, faster and, I find, more fluffy.  We have imported the Primaris rules backwards to be the standard marines in 3rd edition as I really like how they work, making the marines tougher, and the figures are finally the right size for the fluff. 

[Diablo Jon]

Been a long time since I played 2nd but my recollection was Marines where bloody good especially with the  awful close combat rules in second. My orks constantly got owned in hand to hand by my mates space marines in 2nd.

[Hobby Services]

Been a long time since I played 2nd but my recollection was Marines where bloody good especially with the  awful close combat rules in second. My orks constantly got owned in hand to hand by my mates space marines in 2nd.

Orks were arguably even worse off in 2nd ed, but no, standard marines were chumps in that era.  The only things that competitive players fielded beyond minimum requirements were devastators (because overwatch was gross), terminators (which were rock solid), and tooled up characters.  Joe Tac Marine was a rare animal in those days, no matter what your orks experienced.  And yeah, orks did suck hard back then.  They were relatively expensive, had mediocre stats at best, and relied way too much on super-random "comedy" weapons (looking at you, Shokk Attack Gun).  They could pull off the odd amazing stunt (like exploiting 2e's close combat rules to swamp a bloodthirster with so many grots that their herder could poke the poor sap to death with his herdin' stikk) but mostly they just died.

[matthais-mouse]

To be honest I've only played 2nd ed a few times and heavily house ruled by the group who have played it for years so it may not have been quite the same as "proper" 2nd ed.

I did do really well against both guard and eldar with my marines though, but again could be because of the house rulings.

[mcfonz]

Marines have always been good. Standard troopers or otherwise. The universes best all rounders.

AP was introduced 3rd ed onwards I believe. It replaces the modifier system and to be honest I prefer it. It's more or less the same, just expressed differently. Rather than saying you have flak armour and a -1 save modifier, if it's AP 6 you don't get a save.

The main difference is that if the AP isn't good enough the armour isn't effected. So say you have 5+ armour and hit by an AP 6 weapon - no modifiers, you get your save, the AP 6 weapon isn't strong enough to negate your armour.

[matthais-mouse]

Marines have always been good. Standard troopers or otherwise. The universes best all rounders.

AP was introduced 3rd ed onwards I believe. It replaces the modifier system and to be honest I prefer it. It's more or less the same, just expressed differently. Rather than saying you have flak armour and a -1 save modifier, if it's AP 6 you don't get a save.

The main difference is that if the AP isn't good enough the armour isn't effected. So say you have 5+ armour and hit by an AP 6 weapon - no modifiers, you get your save, the AP 6 weapon isn't strong enough to negate your armour.

Exactly. And yet my cousin cant seem to see why I have a problem with it.
Dont get me wrong, in 2nd ed I didnt like it, but the way the rest of the game played, I still felt my marines (one tactical squad, two five men scout squads and a dreadnought with two characters) really fought and played well. I mean I was in open ground with the tactical squad and still managed to hold back 40 guardsmen for three turns who were in cover (bad deployment on my part then no where to go as I thought I would have) My dreadnought helped but was occupied firing at the heavy weapons teams.

In this edition, it just feels wrong, so wrong.

Anyway, my rant is over as Ive just had a horrible incident with my Xwing miniatures. I was repainting them so stripped the paint and RUINED them all because of the stripper I was using. My bad but still really REALLY upsetting 

[mcfonz]

Eeeek! 

Re this edition - yes, there is a LOT more dice rolling which to me is the main change in feel. It is nigh on impossible to field a pure tooth and claw army for Tyranids now which is a real shame. You just get torn apart by overwatch, especially overwatch with flame type weapons that auto hit.

Re the X-Wing models, I have the old starter set that I was looking to shift, that be of any interest to you? Tie fighters and x-wings.

[matthais-mouse]

Re the X-Wing models, I have the old starter set that I was looking to shift, that be of any interest to you? Tie fighters and x-wings.

Thanks for the offer but I was playing as scum. I had a nice squadron that although not legal in tournaments the group allowed it, then stripping them was a big mistake.
Instead I have put all of my cards, dice and what not on ebay for sale and will not go back to the game, even though it was oddly my favourite, but Warhammer underworlds can take that spot now haha.