Mongolian infantry c.1920

[FramFramson]

Mark's absolutely right - it's a Dodge Brothers touring car.

Look at the very unique clips on the wheel rim - they're present in the photo of the "Mongol Technical", just as they are in modern photos of restored ones (2nd picture is of a 1918 model, which is a style that went unchanged at Dodge from 1915 through to the early/mid 20's):





Would love to find one like this in 1:60!

[tin shed gamer]

I was going to suggest picking Michael's brains, ( However he's already beat me to it.) As I'd put money on a Siberian histroy buff having a better Idea of where to look.
I was quite taken with one of the images in his link.
The outfits are almost identical in his picture and the one I'd found. I even mused on the possibility of it being the same person at different points in time.( but I'm no anthropologist so it'd be a poor bet.)

As for the car it'd be a very easy build(  oooh sounds a bit arrogant.   Just ment I've already done one.)
I could knock one up in a day or so.
If you remind me after the beginning of February then I'll find the time.

Mark.

[cuprum]

Well, I agree - the wheels are not characteristic of the "Ford".
But this car is different from the photo you cited.








By the way, there are identical wheels on a truck and a passenger car... Perhaps - this is some kind of improvisation.

[FramFramson]

Nice to see much clearer photos.

Dodge partnered with General Motors by mid-WWI (which included Cadillac and Oldmobile), all of which used similar Dodge-type wheels and had very similar bodies and front ends. It's possible these are Cadillacs, as the US was supplied with thousands of nearly-identical Cadillacs and Dodges during WWI, and every last one of these were sold at scrap prices in France instead of returning to the US. But the two cars were nearly identical:





It's good to remember that even though the cars were mass-produced, there would be minor differences in the body depending on the work and parts available to different coach-building shops.

In fact if you look at the spokes of the rear wheels on both the Mongol vehicles, they match the Cadillac even more than the Dodge, as they have a bulge and stud in the middle of the spokes.

So it is very possible that some number of cheap, war-worn ex-US Dodges or Cadillacs from WWI passed into Russian hands in 1918-20. In any case, the details are some small as to be mostly irrelevant to a military modeller.

Trucks and cars using the same wheels would have been common in early car-making, as most light trucks were just the cars, with the rear body swapped out for a truckbed (the Model T did the same). You don't see true separation between car and truck designs until the mid 20's.

[cuprum]

I heard from a specialist in Russian cars of the early 20th century that during the intervention period many American cars were supplied for Kolchak’s army. And he mentioned Cadillac among others. From there, they could easily get into Mongolia.

[tin shed gamer]

You raise a good point Michael.
Theres a lot of available and plausible options.
Matts picture is of the earlier model.The styling and chassis length changed mid 1923 early 24. Which is when the Roy Chapman Andrews took them to Mongolia along with Fulton one ton trucks.
My logic pretty simple (may be completely wrong but it was plausible enough for me.)
I was sent the same image's. Which were helpful. I discounted the model A for the following reason . I didn't feel the radiator grill matched the Ford . The A as far as I knew (and could be bothered to look ) windscreen open from the bonnet height and in one piece. The door shape didn't seem to fit a ford as much a Dodge.
(Cadillac similar issues, bonnet has a slight slope. Its more rounded where the coach work meets the fire wall. The windscreen has a more rounded lower half)
But more importantly the image is supposed to predate the Ford A by several years .assuming it is dated correctly then it can't be a Ford.
My logic is a little more speculative at this point.
At the time Dodges had  established reputations for reliability on expeditions both military and civillian ( Ford A being a lot more thirsty than the Dodge.)
Old Indiana Jones had already bombed through the area on a least two previous expeditions in Dodges . So their reputation was high .Plus they didn't bring the vehicles back on all the trips as it cost too much. They did bring replacement vehicles with them on following expeditions.Never mentioned where the others
 had gone.Not unreasonable to assume they'd been commandeered from the depot.( gets a bit vague as its over a decade of expeditions and models/years of vehicles.)
All that fluff aside the Dodge worked well enough to base a model on.
The one thing that would help date the photographs is the motorcycle 
But I can't quite read the petrol tank.

[FramFramson]

The motorbike is very clearly an Indian (luckily, I can read the tank badge ), and thus American.

However that doesn't mean too much, as I remember an earlier thread here about Russian motorbike use during WWI. The Russian army apparently had a wide variety of different motorbikes, sourcing whatever they could from wherever they could.

[FramFramson]

I heard from a specialist in Russian cars of the early 20th century that during the intervention period many American cars were supplied for Kolchak’s army. And he mentioned Cadillac among others. From there, they could easily get into Mongolia.

Yes, this sounds likeliest to me.

[tin shed gamer]

It does seem the most logical source for the vehicles.
As I said its just a plausible fluff to Have commandeered vehicles. Given Just how may vehicle's were bombing around in the area.

I couldn't see any characteristics of a Cadillac of that period. The reason I modelled on the Dodge is because I see Dodge characteristics. So thats the hunch I played.
No reason if they are Dodges that they couldn't  have come from the Russians(unless they didn't have any of course.)

[FramFramson]

It does seem the most logical source for the vehicles.
As I said its just a plausible fluff to Have commandeered vehicles. Given Just how may vehicle's were bombing around in the area.

I couldn't see any characteristics of a Cadillac of that period. The reason I modelled on the Dodge is because I see Dodge characteristics. So thats the hunch I played.
No reason if they are Dodges that they couldn't  have come from the Russians(unless they didn't have any of course.)

The Americans used (and sold off) both Cadillacs and Dodges when they left France, more than 20,000 vehicles in total. In fact, us military cars from WWI are vanishingly rare because not one was ever returned to the US.

So there would have been loads of old American cars floating around Europe in the immediate postwar. Which is probably where the cars given to Kolchak came from.

In any case, I think we've probably investigated this topic far more deeply than Ignatieff needed. 

[cuprum]

FramFramson, "Indiana" motorcycles were widely distributed in Russia. I often see them mentioned in memoirs.

tin shed gamer, you do not need to worry. In the Far East, in Russia, in China, there were quite a lot of ports and wealthy citizens who could buy any car in private. Well, the fate of the car during the hostilities could develop the most freak.

[cuprum]

An article about a personal car Admiral Kolchak. It was the Cadillac-55-V-8 - a gift from the American government. For reading, I recommend using the Google translator.

http://turbonsk.ru/avtomobil-admirala-kolchaka-cadillac-55-v-8/

[tin shed gamer]

I quite agree we've side tracked and slightly highjacked the thread.So to make amends I went trawling through Mongolian websites last night..
( note It's quite alarming what come up when you remove safe search    )

[3 fingers]

What’s the long gun being propped up ? Looks very vsf?

[FramFramson]

What’s the long gun being propped up ? Looks very vsf?

Looks like a Lewis gun with an odd frontispiece.

Love the Mauser with the rare wooden holster/stock combo.