Best way to portray early 16th century pikemen?

[Malatesta]

Which is fine until you get someone like the tw*t who re-designed the 15mm Minifigs range back in the mid 1980s and made the unarmoured (ie rear ranks) pikemen at "charge your pike" and the armoured (ie front ranks) pikemen at order arms.  And not just for one nationality, but for two - Landsknechts and English!

Armored pikemen ("Doppelsöldner") did occupy rear ranks (in addition to front ranks). The Trewer Rath (thought to be written by none other than the father of the Landsknechte, von Frundsberg, gave an example of a typical infantry formation:

1-­4th rank: Doppelsöldner
5th rank: Halberdiers
6-­7th rank: Mittelsöldner
8-­10th rank: Gemeinen söldner
11-­13th rank: Führern, Furirern, Waybeln und Schlachtschwerter together with the two ensigns
14-­18th rank: Gemeiner söldner
19th rank: Knebelspeiss
20­-21st rank: Doppelsöldner


(Credit goes to "Daniel S" for posting this information years ago).

[bluechi]

https://images.booklooker.de/s/0130kC/Georg-Ortenburg+Heerwesen-der-Neuzeit-Waffe-und-Waffengebrauch-im-Zeitalter-der-Landsknechte-L7.jpg

this book gives the best look .....1480-1650

[Khurasan Miniatures]

Looks like pike upright is winning but I wonder how landsknechts and Swiss would look if depicted that way? The Spanish maybe, because their pikemen didn’t exist primarily to plow into the enemy infantry, but attack columns would I think be rather strange looking if just standing around?

[Charlie_]

but attack columns would I think be rather strange looking if just standing around?

Yes, exactly! You've got to have options for attacking or at least advancing.

[mellis1644]

As gamer vs. detailed scale modeler upright is much easier to handle/deal with.  Yes it's not great visually but it is better for many games without house rules etc. It's what I mostly buy to be honest for 15mm pikes. I think for strength many figs have the pike on the floor but having it at a marching position is great as well - loose pikes allow that, at the risk that the pike is even higher in the end.

The 45 degrees pose is much a good compromise I find. I have some of those poses in my collection.

I don't buy the leveled pikes in 15mm. Although realistic for the front rank close to an enemy it's not when moving round the battlefield. It also plays havoc with basing/using 15mm figs for rules like DBR etc.

[Khurasan Miniatures]

Right -- but it's actually possible to do pikemen advancing with pikes *almost* upright.  maybe just 15 degrees off from straight up.  What do you think of that?

[levied troop]

..... It also plays havoc with basing/using 15mm figs for rules like DBR etc.

If you’re thinking of the ’retreat 1 base depth’ rules, then not really.  All you do is put a scenic marker (rock/bush clump/dropped weapon) on the base at the appropriate base depth as a reminder when your troops retreat. 

[smirnoff]

Right -- but it's actually possible to do pikemen advancing with pikes *almost* upright.  maybe just 15 degrees off from straight up.  What do you think of that?

I think that would be fine, I'd buy them.
Are you planning to do early landsknechts? I.e. tighter hose like Dolstien's/Dolnstein's drawings?

[vexillia]

I used both with 4 front rank figures on 40 by 40 mm bases and I count them as two bases not one:



https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2018/01/what-i-have-painted-recently.html  (scroll to the bottom).

[Griefbringer]

Right -- but it's actually possible to do pikemen advancing with pikes *almost* upright.  maybe just 15 degrees off from straight up.  What do you think of that?

You might want to look at The Assault Group ranges (28 mm) for some inspiration. They typically produce pikemen holding weapons with two hands at various angles - typically around 45, 60, 75 and 85 degrees or so, and many of these are in walking poses rather than just standing. The pictures on their webstore show the figures with empty hands, but you can probably find some examples of assembled and painted figures with pikes.

[Khurasan Miniatures]

I think that would be fine, I'd buy them.
Are you planning to do early landsknechts? I.e. tighter hose like Dolstien's/Dolnstein's drawings?

The range is 1511-27 or so, and by then the classic landsknecht look had been adopted. The Swiss were in very similar dress, although there were some slight differences. For example, a Swiss reislaufer of 1516:

[Khurasan Miniatures]

You might want to look at The Assault Group ranges (28 mm) for some inspiration. They typically produce pikemen holding weapons with two hands at various angles - typically around 45, 60, 75 and 85 degrees or so, and many of these are in walking poses rather than just standing. The pictures on their webstore show the figures with empty hands, but you can probably find some examples of assembled and painted figures with pikes.

I’m asking to see what customers think is best, what they most want to see and use.

[smirnoff]

The range is 1511-27 or so, and by then the classic landsknecht look had been adopted.

Thats a shame, I don't know of a 15mm range that covers pre 1511

[Khurasan Miniatures]

IMO Ravenna to the sack of Rome is far and away the most interesting time period of the Italian Wars, for all the reasons — the clothing and equipment, the tactical methods at odds, the battles, the history. That’s why I’m doing it! 😊

[smirnoff]

I agree there is lots to get your teeth into
But then the earlier period has a great deal going for it too
The search continues...