Basic Roman questions

[Will Bailie]

I've been following this conversation with interest. I'm certainly no expert on the Roman army, but have been an enthusiastic amateur from time to time.

One thing that wargamers tend to miss when building their Roman armies (from almost any historical era) is that the actual Roman legions were usually only around half of any Roman army.  The other half were auxiliaries and allies.  Auxiliaries could be the uniformed type (often depicted with flat, oval shields to distinguish them from the curved, rectangular shields for the EIR legionaries), but could also be nearly any other type of warrior from the time period.  German or Celtic warriors in their trousers and long hair, Cretan slingers, Numidian cavalry or skirmishers.  In the year of the four emperors (a crazy, multi-sided civil war over the succession to Emperor Nero), Otho's army included 2000 gladiators!  (in all likelihood, they would have looked much like other legionaries, but that's no reason to prevent us wargamers from adding a unit of retarii, secutori and the like!

It also means you can collect a core force of Roman legionaries, and fill in the rest of the army with allies and auxiliaries to your heart's content, even changing the support from one game to another as your army relocates from Britannia to Hispania to Judea to beyond the borders of the empire.

[Unlucky General]

I'll put in a a word for the late republic - post Marian reforms or Caesarean period. The reason I game this is because of the history - the 'romantic' heroes and famous/infamous leaders such as Marius, Sulla, Pompey, Julius Caesar, Crassus, Octavian, Vircingetorix, Jugurtha and Mark Antony to name but a few of the most famous. It's a period of ongoing civil war, wars of expansion with plenty of Romans on Roman action with allies as well as campaigns agaionst Gauls, Spaniards - the list goes on.

It's also a period with plenty of the best movies to entertain and inspire. I just have to re-watch HBO series Rome and I'm reaching for another batch of figures.

As far as variety is concerned, all auxiliary (support) for the legions was provided essentially by allies - so non-Romans with even more variety and colour. At this period strength is often referred to in numbers of cohorts rather than legions. I'd suggest armies can be made up of cohorts from different legions is you need even more variety.

The shield designs and colours for this period are also highly speculative. Red shields with yellow lightening bolts, wings and arrows are almost universally adopted by artists, movie makers and transfer suppliers but this is a 'convention' with less historical evidence than you might think. I personally use the same shield design concept to identify each legion and I use blue for one and yellow for the other - so far. There is nothing to stop different shields between cohorts because we just don't know.

So, your Roman world is your oyster.

[tuco74]

Thanks again for everybody's input - exactly why I joined the forum.

So, first off I need to improve my knowledge of Roman history!

The main thing I've taken away from the above is that I should be looking to the Auxiliaries to bring some variety into a force. I quite like this idea actually as (if I've understood correctly) I could have a core force of Romans and place them in different campaigns by virtue of their allies.

Has anybody read Daniel Mersey's book on Roman wargaming? Came across it on Amazon and it looks like a good primer for some ideas as to what I can look at in terms of painting and modelling.

[tuco74]

Out of interest can anybody recommend a manufacturer for Romans (and allies/enemies) in 15mm? I've been contemplating a 15mm project for a while and this might be a good subject.

[SteveBurt]

If you want a really good guide to the Roman Army, I can highly recommend "The Complete Roman Army" by Adrian Goldsworthy.

[tuco74]

Thanks Steve, I'll take a look.

[williamb]

Before choosing a manufacturer it would be best to decide on which period of Roman history for the army.   The iconic image of Roman infantry in Lorica Segmentata and semi-cylindrical shields only lasted for a century or so during the early empire.   Before and after the shields were oval shaped.  The Lorica Segmentat did continue to be used for a time after oval shields were adopted.

Prior to the Marian reforms local warriors were used to supplement the army.   Scipio used Spanish warriors in Spain and Numidians in North Africa.   Later armies used Hellenistic troops in Greece and Asia Minor.  They even had a few North African Elephants.   Following the Marian reforms armies such as Caesar's were almost all legionaries with a some Gallic or other local cavalry and some local light infantry. 

While some of the information has changed since they were published the two books I mentioned previously do provide organization and drawings of troop types and equipment showing the changes the legions went through over almost 1000 years from about 400 B.C. to about 600 A.D.   The book on the armies of imperial Rome also includes line drawings of shield patterns including those of the Notitia Dignitatum.  I haven't read Goldworthy's book though he has been recommended on the Society of Ancients forums. 

I can't recommend a 15mm manufacturer as my armies are 6mm.   While I do have an early imperial army, I prefer the Republican army due to the variety of opponents and the later empire due to the variety of troop types.

[tuco74]

Before choosing a manufacturer it would be best to decide on which period of Roman history for the army.   The iconic image of Roman infantry in Lorica Segmentata and semi-cylindrical shields only lasted for a century or so during the early empire.   Before and after the shields were oval shaped.  The Lorica Segmentat did continue to be used for a time after oval shields were adopted.

I can't recommend a 15mm manufacturer as my armies are 6mm.   While I do have an early imperial army, I prefer the Republican army due to the variety of opponents and the later empire due to the variety of troop types.

So would it be fair to say that Republican and Late Imperial = chainmail and oval shields while Early Imperial = segmented armour and rectangular shields (i.e. what most people think of as a Roman soldier)?

[Hu Rhu]

So would it be fair to say that Republican and Late Imperial = chainmail and oval shields while Early Imperial = segmented armour and rectangular shields (i.e. what most people think of as a Roman soldier)?

Broadly yes, that is my understanding.

[tuco74]

So I've been sizing up using either Warlord or Victrix to start a late Imperial Roman project.

Victrix look to be the nicer minis but are more expensive and not compatible with Warlord. Victrix don't appear in the scale comparison pinned to the top of the page. Can anybody recommend another manufacturer with which they would scale well? I think I've seen Black Tree mentioned elsewhere.

Warlord have a really good range, are cost effective but appear quite small compared to most other ranges. They look like they would match quite well with the older Foundry sculpts - can anybody confirm?

[FierceKitty]

Whether they wore mail or lorica segmentata, the Romans would have had a thing or two to say to the poster who accused them of having a kingdom.

[SteveBurt]

If you look at the scale comparison thread which is stickied at the top of the Ancients board, there are lots of nice pictures of Republican, Early Imperial, and Late Imperial Romans.

[tuco74]

If you look at the scale comparison thread which is stickied at the top of the Ancients board, there are lots of nice pictures of Republican, Early Imperial, and Late Imperial Romans.

SteveBurt, yes I have done but the one glaring omission is Victrix for EIR. In addition the picture is a bit unclear for Warlord (it looks like the line of minis isn't straight) but it does look as though they would match with early Foundry and not much else.