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Author Topic: First look at 28mm third crusade period  (Read 1512 times)

Offline janner

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 12:08:25 PM »
Many thanks for that expansive response and the additional links to the manuscript miniatures site, Jaunty. Unfortunately, not all relevant martial images from each manuscript have been included by the author of the website, which risks their presenting a partial view.

As you are no doubt aware, the Aberdeen Bestiary also has a knight with a robe worn over their armour (Folio 8r), but it is not clear if it's a cloak or something distinct. Here's a link to the full manuscript, https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/ms24/f1r

Arundel 157 is interesting because it generally depicts martial figures in normal civil attire - even St. George (Folio 66v) - but it does have one knight in a surcoat (Folio 80v). However, it is probably an early thirteenth-century manuscript, i.e. produced around the time or after John's Great Seal with him in a surcoat. Full manuscript here: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=arundel_ms_157_fs001r

Morgan M.44 is also probably a little early (c.1175), but it does show the long 'skirts' favoured on Richard I's Great Seals (Folio 7v). Here is a link to all its images: http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/77488

I agree that the images in Otto fo Friesling are more consistent in portraying troops in uncovered mail, but again, it could be as early as c.1160.

Thot 141 maybe also as early as 1175, but there are some other images of troops with uncovered mail you might be interested in: http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/242/eng/8+recto/

Even given that Arundel 157 is a little late, Harley Roll Y6 and the Lyngsjö Font suggest the figures in the Winchester Bible are less likely to be outliers, but indicative of increasing use of surcoats in the late twelfth century. As I posted earlier, probably common enough for magnates and bannerets, and, perhaps, their intimates. When putting together my Third Crusade force several years ago, I had Roger of Harcourt, Peter of Preaux, and Stephen of Thornham in surcoats, but the bulk of Richard I's household knights in bare mail. The mixture seemed suitably reflective of a transitional period.

Here's a link to Harley Y6 for completeness, http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=harley_roll_y_6_fs001r

Kind regards,

Offline jauntyharrison

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 10:51:30 AM »
The mixture seemed suitably reflective of a transitional period.

Thank you for attaching links to all those full text scans. Manuscript miniatures is a powerful tool, but it lives or dies based on the willingness of a very small community to contribute and tag content on it.

I'd like to pick your brain about one particular source that I've always found difficult to integrate into my understanding of this aesthetic progression. For a change, this is a written source rather than a visual source. In Bernard of Clairvaux's In Praise of the New Knighthood he writes "Operitis equos sericis, et pendulos nescio quos panniculos loricis superinduitis" He's referring to horses covered in silk and armor covered with plumes of little garments.

I confess I don't know how to digest this. Bernard died in 1153, and he probably wrote this before the 2nd Crusade, not in the final decades of his life. If he's describing surcoats and caparisons, then he's describing an aesthetic that is vanishingly rare in visual sources that could possibly be from his lifetime. Should I read into this that there were fashionistas jumping the gun by a couple of decades?

Offline janner

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 02:53:04 PM »
Hi Jaunty,

"...plume your amour with I don't know what sort of rags;" or "plumes of little garments" is a strange turn of phrase, especially given lorica was usually reserved for body armour - like a hauberk. If he had referred to their helmet (galea or cassis), it would be less problematic. As it stands, it sounds like some form of multi-coloured gillie-suit  lol

As you know, in this section, St. Bernard was criticizing the ostentatious behaviour of secular knights in comparison to the brother-knights of the Templars. So there is the risk of Cistercian exaggeration, but I do think there is likely to be a kernel of truth in there - all be it some regional fashion or a particularly memorable gala/carnival.

He doesn't seem to be describing cloaks, such as probably depicted in Folio 8r of the Aberdeen Bestiary and a very logical choice for campaign-wear. When Bernard goes on to describe their tripping over their long and full tunics, however, it more likely refers to court attire than surcoats, I think.

The joys of medieval research - more holes than a fishing net  :)