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Author Topic: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?  (Read 6291 times)

Offline trev

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 08:48:36 PM »
Byblos, may I know the source of your information?

I don't know if this is Bylos' original source but the text is the same.  I stumbled upon it after reading it here and saved the link.
https://hubpages.com/education/Churchills-Private-War-British-Intervention-in-South-Russia--1919

Offline trev

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2019, 08:58:41 PM »
Great pictures Cuprum!  :D  Thanks for posting.  I have been reading through a lot of your old posts too.  The detail is wonderful.

Offline Byblos

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2019, 09:03:46 PM »
I don't know if this is Bylos' original source but the text is the same.  I stumbled upon it after reading it here and saved the link.
https://hubpages.com/education/Churchills-Private-War-British-Intervention-in-South-Russia--1919

Oh so it's from Perry Moore !?

It's a wargame author, and he made DTP games on the Russian Civil War !

Offline Sparrow

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2019, 09:23:22 PM »
That's what they all say  ;)

Laughed out loud!
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Offline trev

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2019, 09:45:39 PM »
I am surprised that the White Army had a special need to study British weapons in depth, given that there were a large number of officers and other veterans of the First World War in the White Army, in which British machine guns were widely used in the Imperial Army.

The article I linked to has a section on the British training the Whites and says training was an integral part of the aid mission.  See P112.  I won't post it all here as there are several pages.  It isn't very complimentary to the Imperial Russian army.  The sources seem to be the diaries of British officers from the mission.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/14920703.pdf

Rifles and various ammunition were widely produced in the UK on orders from the Russian government during the First World War, and it was from these products that weapons of the Russian type were delivered.

I was not aware of any British made Mosin rifles but I know millions were made in America, so maybe that was the source.  If you have a source for British Mosins I would be interested.

There is lots of information on the mighty Mosina here.

http://7.62x54r.net/
http://mosinnagant.net/

By the way, I have never seen rifles of the English sample in a photo of whites in the South of Russia ...

That's interesting.  I could not find any pictures either and only that one source on Kolchakiya to say that Enfields were used.  The huge numbers shipped perhaps meant that the English rifles were not needed.  The American made Mosins are excellent weapons from what I had read.  Although, if the 200,000 Enfields mentioned in Byblos' post were really supplied, that is a lot to just sit in the stores.  Gun collectors around the world would leap for joy if they are still in a storehouse somewhere. :)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 08:28:05 AM by trev »

Offline trev

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2019, 09:52:45 PM »
Laughed out loud!

I think we need photos before we get too carried away.  ;)

Offline cuprum

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2019, 07:38:37 AM »
I had never been interested in what types of rifles the British supplied to the White armies in southern Russia. I know that Russian-made rifles were made in the United States by order of the Russian government. It was probably them.
I know that during the period of the First World War, the British transferred about 160,000 Japanese rifles to the tsarist army and started issuing cartridges for them. Perhaps part of the ammunition for the white armies were for the Japanese rifles  - "Arisaka" was widely used in Russia.

I also came across information that, according to the reports of General Shcherbachev: “In view of the fact that the stock of Russian weapons abroad, mainly rifles, ammunition, light guns and gunshots, is exhausted, the British government decided to rearm the armies of generals Denikin, Yudenich and Miller exclusively English weapons. Russian rifles, ammunition, etc., both from stocks abroad and the remaining armies after re-equipment, should be sent to Admiral Kolchak to the Siberian Army”.


An example of the use of British rifles. Headquarters division Ataman Annenkov:


Offline cuprum

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2019, 07:56:30 AM »
From the book V. Galin "Intervention and Civil War":

  Arms supplies Western countries White armies (on incomplete data)

..................................... USA................ England .......................  France ............................. Japan

Rifles (thousand pcs.)....... 715 .................. 450 ........................... no data .............................  70
 
Machine guns ................ 1,100 ............... 10,500 ........................... 1700 ............................... 100
 
Guns ............................... 22 .................. 2,000 ............................ 1000 ............................... 30
 
Tanks .......................... no data ................. 130 ........................... no data .......................... no data
 
Airplanes ........................ 100 .................... 200 .............................. 200 ............................. no data


I find it difficult to say how reliable these figures are, since I am not familiar with the source.

Offline area23

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2019, 08:40:50 AM »
Amazing information. Now who is going to write Copplestone that we need White Russians in russian uniform with British rifles, and russians with british uniform and Russian rifles?  :D
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Offline cuprum

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2019, 08:45:49 AM »
And Japanese, Italian, French, and American "Winchesters" rifle)))

Offline trev

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2019, 09:45:52 AM »
More great detail.  Good finds Cuprum. Thanks. 

Some kit-bashing or conversion may be possible from WW2 plastic figures perhaps.  It would be a pain to do but a nice touch if you can be bothered.  Unless anyone knows any talented sculptors?  ;)

Offline cuprum

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2019, 12:49:37 PM »
In fact, if you look closely at the figures of Mr. Copplestone, we will see how with a small conversion a Russian rifle is transformed into a British one:



Just using uncomplicated manipulation, I've done a rifle "Berdan" for his Red Guards in Siberia:





Do not be afraid to do the conversion - you will get ample opportunities to decorate your army.







« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 12:57:22 PM by cuprum »

Offline Hammers

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2019, 01:02:28 PM »
You are a treasure to this forum, cuprum.

Offline trev

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2019, 03:09:28 PM »
Nice conversions cuprum.   I like the carrying straps and stowed gear.  The running figures are Copplestone if I guess right.  That's looks like a simple conversion and very effective.  You are a gold mine of ideas and information.

Offline cuprum

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Re: Whites using Interventionist Equipment?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2019, 03:40:51 PM »
You just need to separate one of the legs from the stand, make an incision in the back under the knee (about 1 mm wide) and bend the leg. I use for conversions - soldering. If this is difficult, you can use a steel pin on the glue.
You can easily change heads in various headgear, hands and arms (for officers and riders, mostly). The possibilities are the richest.