Salute 2019

[Bloggard]

captain blood - I don't normally 'contribute' this kind of content, but waitwhat's comments seemed reasonable (I was thinking the same) and all he said was 'bothered'.

key point: there's a luminary on this board (used to be a mod, not sure if he still is) who I've seen using the 'f' word more than once in a thread in a totally unnecessary and aggressive manner - and that's just in the few posts of his I've seen.

[Captain Blood]

Forum rule 1.5
(And the cardinal rule of this forum since day 1)

The Lead Adventure Forum Rules of Use
1.5 Swearing and other strong language.

Basically, nothing beats a decent bout of swearing, which most wargamers will be used to considering the way the dice roll, and we all know Lady Luck is a fickle b***h. I personally do not care about it, and most others don’t, either.

You are not allowed, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, to use swear-words or slurs when addressing a fellow user!

You may use such in a theoretical or “general” context, but NEVER to attack someone personally.

In other words, there's no LAF rule against swearing in general. But there is a rule against using language aggressively directly against another member.
Calling someone mean-spirited and saying they 'can't be bothered' is out of line with that. Fine to disagree, but not with aggression against another user. Thanks.

[waitwhat]

Forum rule 1.5
(And the cardinal rule of this forum since day 1)

In other words, there's no LAF rule against swearing in general. But there is a rule against using language aggressively directly against another member.
Calling someone mean-spirited and saying they 'can't be bothered' is out of line with that. Fine to disagree, but not with aggression against another user. Thanks.

I didn't want to get drawn into this but...

I don't see how demeaning game producers as "a sea of mediocrity" or "[not] much competition" is anything but a slur, and further I'll note that i didn't accuse the person of being mean-spirited, I accused the statement - because it is. If the games are allowed to be slandered but not defended then I think the forum rules need to be revised.

[mcfonz]

I was sick as a do, still not improved today, had aircraft tickets and express entry also, devestated I could not be there.

matt

There aren't 'express entry' tickets anymore. Hasn't been for several years in fact...

[mcfonz]

I'm going to chime in here too.

I feel that Wait, What's response was far less aggressive to the original instigator and yet he is getting berated and not the other.

I feel that stepping in too soon in this situation may have amplified a perfectly adult conversation into one where suggestions of aggression were being made where they hadn't been before.

As it is though, the facts are the facts. There were as many historical games as there were fantasy and sci fi. South London Warlords do their best to try and balance this every year hence not everyone gets to put on a game.

As part of a group of gamers from around the world, we were two tables in a run of four participation games. One sci fi, two modern and one fantasy. Every one of those tables was superb. One won an award for being the most innovative. It happened to be 3x2 I believe.

I still see the seas of historical manufacturers, many big players in their markets. Gripping Beast, Perry, Warlord, Foundry etc. All were there plus the many, many others.

Every year Salute gets the same response, from the same vocal minority and yet despite the South London Warlords themselves pointing to the balance they persist.

I do feel some folks will not be happy with a show until it is full of the things they would prefer to see. In reality it needs to be balanced. I suspect they don't get as much say over companies. I mean lets say a show has 200 trader spaces and gets 130 scifi/fantasy traders apply and 70 historical, do they turn down 60 traders to please the few folks that are militant towards the other? No, that way leads to no show.

Outside of that, perhaps it is the modern market. Perhaps in general, the traders attending are the ones that can afford to and ergo are currently those in the better financial position due to popularity to do so?

I do believe that the criticism is vastly unfair, hugely disrespectful of the efforts the South London Warlords put into it and at it's core, disrespectful of the hobby.

[Alan Mercer]

I had no.intention to belittle or offend, so my apologies if I did.

 I have come away from many Salutes hugely inspired, on this occasion I did not. I have been involved in running several games at previous salutes and I have been a trader so I have some understanding of what is involved.

[Captain Blood]

@mcfonz: The forum has rules. One of the rules is that you don't direct insults at fellow members even if you don't agree with them. That's it. I know you have your own views about moderation here being too heavy-handed. You've told me before. But as a moderator here, my experience is that once people start using terms like 'mean-spirited', 'can't be bothered' and 'why don't you show us what we're doing wrong', all that happens is it degenerates into flaming and anything but a perfectly adult conversation. So please let's just keep it civil towards each other, per the original request. Thanks

[waitwhat]

@mcfonz: The forum has rules. One of the rules is that you don't direct insults at fellow members even if you don't agree with them. That's it. I know you have your own views about moderation here being too heavy-handed. You've told me before. But as a moderator here, my experience is that once people start using terms like 'mean-spirited', 'can't be bothered' and 'why don't you show us what we're doing wrong', all that happens is it degenerates into flaming and anything but a perfectly adult conversation. So please let's just keep it civil towards each other, per the original request. Thanks

You say "start" but it was a response. Explain to me why it's ok to say things like "sea of mediocrity" and then this is at an end.

[Captain Blood]

As I said to you in a pm a little while ago, criticising a wargames show isn’t against the forum rules, even if you find those opinions or how they’re expressed out of order.
Being directly insulting to a fellow member is against the rules.
He made a general comment about the show. You made personal comments about him. That’s the difference.
If he’d used aggressive phrases towards you personally, I’d be saying exactly the same to him.

[mcfonz]

Apart from he wasn't.

Whatever is in the past is in the past.

But the 'show' wasn't insulted. The people that put on games were... There are several people amongst the LAF community who put on games, so this becomes a blanket insult to all of their efforts...

That's what is being pointed out here. And a stance I happen to agree with. After all, the show doesn't put all of the games on. It merely provides the space for games.

[mcfonz]

I had no.intention to belittle or offend, so my apologies if I did.

 I have come away from many Salutes hugely inspired, on this occasion I did not. I have been involved in running several games at previous salutes and I have been a trader so I have some understanding of what is involved.

Accepted.

I would kindly challenge your view of what the show is for though. To create a truly 'wowing' table it either takes thinking out of the box like the Scarif table last year, a lot of money or both. But I don't believe it's a club, group or society's job to wow anyone. The most important thing about any show is that it is a celebration of our hobby, has a positive atmosphere and engages with the regular punters.

After all, most of those putting on games are just punters with extra responsibilities.

[vodkafan]

I enjoyed SALUTE and I took two of my daughters (16 and 12) for their first wargames show and they had a great time too. I go most years  and the games vary from year to year. Last year many of the games on display were absolutely spectacular so it would be hard to match that kind of visual standard every year.
I agree with mcfonz about a show being a celebration of our hobby first and foremost.

[waitwhat]

As I said to you in a pm a little while ago, criticising a wargames show isn’t against the forum rules, even if you find those opinions or how they’re expressed out of order.
Being directly insulting to a fellow member is against the rules.
He made a general comment about the show. You made personal comments about him. That’s the difference.
If he’d used aggressive phrases towards you personally, I’d be saying exactly the same to him.

I understand the rules. I profoundly disagree with your interpretation of what has happened here. I am personally offended at the aggressive phrases directed at the games provided because I was one of the providers.

It is intolerable to me that it is acceptable to criticise a group of people, but unacceptable to criticise an individual in defence of the group. If those are the rules, then the rules are inadequate. If I am in the wrong then I want no part of being in the "right". As such, I'm done with LAF.

I hope you can find a way to improve on your rules and your community.

[Abwehrschlacht]

I found it too much of a weird fantasy convention - some of the stands, I thought nice figures but what the hell is that about. Lots seem to be kickstarters. Far too many 2x2 games, that didn’t entice me to play, in fact I had no idea what they were.

Inspired by another thread on another forum, I’ve just crunched the numbers from the games listed in the show programme. The programme gives them the following headings: Historic, Fantasy, Sci-Fi and alt-History, along with undefined (reenactors, etc)

According to SLW’s list (some of these may have pulled out, but were in the list):

Historical: 47
Fantasy: 14
Sc-Fi: 22
Alt-History: 13
Undefined: 2

So, the numbers show that there was quite a lot more historical than both sci-fi and fantasy put together. It balances out if you include the alt-history with the latter. Not entirely sure what this proves though… 😀

[GDonk]

As such, I'm done with LAF.

That would be a real shame and would achieve nothing. Just my view, Joe