Makhno's banner shocker

[area23]

I must admit I'm quite shocked myself, but the other day while searching for images of Makhno's Black Guard flags I stumbled on a Reddit post claiming this famous banner isn't Makhnovist at all, despite what many of us here, on TMP and elswhere always thought. Another illusion shattered!

This new old picture surfaced, with the same two soldiers showing the back of the banner.

It says: "Kish [battalion] of Upper Dnipro", a (socialist leaning?) volunteer Cossack unit of the Ukrainian People's Republic.

the banners of the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine looked more like this:






More talking here:
http://area-23.blogspot.com/2019/04/black-flag.html

[tin shed gamer]

I'm not so sure its the same flag at all.
The material doesn't reflect light in the same way( even accounting for the tone of each photograph.)
The lower flag shows two possible interpretations. The first being that the squares hinted through the material are the reverse side of the letters. But I don't see any correlation between these and the letters.
If you follow these patches down the banner they are in line with the planks of the fence. It seems much more likely that its the fence showing through a thinner and lighter colour cloth than the first flag.
Just because the same two people are holding the flag in the second image doesn't make it the same flag.
Being of a khaki mind It's more than likely there's a series of photographs that these are two of . It's also more than likely these two were the numpties who drew the short straw .Being made to hold a number of flags and what nots to be recorded for prosperity. ( the look on their faces say they'd wish to be anywhere else but here right now. Theres no look of triumph or pride . just the look of someone doing a naff duty.)
Short of that I'll just wait to see what Michael has to say .
For now its a waffling but plausible tin shed musing

[cuprum]

On the first photo - really the banner of one of the military units of the UNR (Ukrainian People's Republic).
The soldiers demonstrate the banners of the defeated Ukrainian units, which is confirmed by another photo from this series:



According to my information, based on the memoirs of literature and documents of Soviet military units, the Makhnovists equally used both black and red banners; these banners very rarely had any images, mostly they carried anarchist slogans and the names of the units to which they belonged. And the inscriptions were made, in Russian, and not in the Ukrainian language.

[area23]

Thanks for confirming Cuprum.

( the look on their faces say they'd wish to be anywhere else but here right now. Theres no look of triumph or pride . just the look of someone doing a naff duty.)

That's hardly an argument. Most pictures from the period have people with a rather odd, bored or distracted, look in their eyes. I think people were not that self-concious yet and didn't know they should smile and say 'cheese'. 
Yet making pictures was still a costly process which needed some preparation, so I don't think these just two random soldiers on duty. Especially if these banners are trophies.

[tin shed gamer]

It was a light hearted jest. if it had been a single photo taken of a war trophy at sortly after an action. You could reasonably expect to see a degree of emotion even if its just pride. After a while and after multiple engagements you become jaded and these sort of things become little more than , a virtually meaningless rag. Because the odds are you'll soon have to face another one.
The only people who hold value in them are Historians and Generals as it qualified the prowess of a unit.

People look awkward and uncomfortable in period photo's because they are self conscious . As being photographed makes you self conscious especially if you are not familiar with the process.Which is more than likely given the background of most of the troops in this period.
It is costly and time consuming, never infered it was just a couple of randoms knocking out photo's

 Being told hold up flags and posing repeatedly for photo after photo on a Sunny day because the brass want some nice pictures is a naff duty when more than likely you could be relaxing with you mates.
Having spent many an hour of my youth guarding western civilization with a pickaxe handle.You become acutely aware of naff duties.
As I suspected and Michael confirmed it's a series of photographs recording a collection of items. More over Micheals photo shows in more detail the structures behind the banners. Which helps qualify the shadows in your photo.
But whats more intriguing is just how young they actually are in Micheals photograph.
It's easy to speculate and muse on the mind set of the individuals in the photos which I'll happily do.
I'm glad you posted it . But what your find shows is how quickly people jump to a conclusion without reading an image.(I'm referring to the source of your find not you area23.) and disregarding any though of context.
My philosophy is. If you need direction on Russian History ask a Russian first.They tend to know where to look.If they dont they often know someone who does.

[cuprum]

Let the youth of the soldiers not surprise you. It was a terrible time, but it was a time of great career opportunities.
For example, take the well-known Soviet children's writer Arkady Gaidar (real name - Golikov). From a family of teachers. In 1918, at the age of 14, he joined the Bolshevik Party. At the end of the same year he entered the Red Commanders courses. At 16, he was already a regiment commander, was wounded and contused in battles ... It was not uncommon at that time that generals and army commanders were 27-30 years old, in either side of the conflict.

[area23]

It was a light hearted jest.

Of course, I know. I didn't want to sound negative.  In fact I've tried debunking the picture with the same reasoning as yours. Not in the least because I always supposed it was a confirmed fact the banner was Maknovist. I've seen a picture of the interior of the Gulay Pole museum with this picture on the wall!
But in the end, the picture was posted and translated on Reddit by an Ukrainian guy and as you say they probably know better than all of us together.

[tin shed gamer]

It's definitely an odd period of history with more than its share of view point's and self styled Authorities. I do tendvto look at things in a more criticality and thoughtfully than is good for me.I managed to up set an entire curators staff on one project . When I was taking photos of a Lanchester car.For the display model .I was rather patronizingly told I couldn't sit in it As it was in a100% original condition. So I politely stated that I highly doubted its authenticity and
As such I had no intention of wasting my time sitting in such a vehicle. I was chastised again and reminded I don't have a
 Doctorate . So I politely replied it was perfectly ture. However my education did included reading more than Janet and John. Whilst pointing at a side panel and walked away
 ( it was embossed made in Taiwan.).

Micheal I joined up at 15 (couldn't get a grant for art school) back in the days when it was easy to identify you enemy as the all wore orange arm bands.
It's fascinating just how much responsibility was given to basically boy's . I spent most of my time  ironing dimples out of boot leather then bulling blood rows of the dambed thing's at that age.