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Author Topic: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)  (Read 9510 times)

Offline SirGromit1879

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Thank you for that I will try and pick up those citadel paints, such rich colours! :)

Offline HappyChappy439

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (20/01 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2020, 10:10:18 PM »
Hi everyone! It's been a bit of a while but I've got another update, this time with actual Burgundians!

John the Fearless was one of the big reasons behind me starting this project, he's an interesting character, and his tenure as Duke is a fascinating period, I'd highly recommend doing some research around him! But at the same time, Burgundians during the Hundred Years War (or the Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War more specifically) are a bit unrepresented in wargaming. With that in mind I set about putting together a command base for Duke John





Ol' Duke Jean sans Peur himself is based on the Perry Agincourt 'herald' model, who I've chopped and sculpted a bit to get the Duke's distinctive hat and outfit. I've based his colour scheme on miniatures from Pierre Salmon, where he is often shown wearing a big flowing houppelande, in particular at one point he's wearing a black houppelande, heavily embroidered with his personal symbol, the 'rabot.' So I used that example as the basis for my interpretation, complete with the stylish pink sleeves. Meanwhile his horse's saddle and bridle are coloured with his personal colours of black, white and green 







Also on the base, the standard bearer is Jacques de Courtiambles, a Burgundian knight, who had fought with Duke (then Count) John at Nicopolis, bore his standard at Othée in 1408, and then continued to serve the duke, and his son into the 1420s. His arms (from what I've found) are three white stars, so I've used those on his houppelande



I've had another go at the ducal standard, based on a description of the standard the Duke commissioned in 1406 (and 1418), describing a crimson standard, with a large rabot and a number of smaller rabots embroidered on it. I've also been taking some cues from an Andrey Kurkin illustration. I've not been able to find a description that includes the Cross of St. Andrew, so I left that out.

Here's the illustration I used, for reference:


And my interpretation of the standard


And a comparison shot with my previous attempt at the standard, I'm quite happy with how the new one has turned out!


Finally, on the base I've included two pavesiers, in the colours of the ducal guard (again, black, white and light green), however I've not included their "Bundle of arrows" on the sleeve that the ducal archers du corps wore.



The pavises themselves are based on contemporary items which include the ducal devise, and also the Cross of St. Andrew, based on a record from 1410 where the Duke orders two pavises "with the devise of the Duke."





The Duke seems to quite rarely use his own coat of arms in his banners and assorted imagery, in favour of his personal symbols, which leaves quite a lot of opportunity for experimentation and research, which is great fun! I've enjoyed putting this base together so I hope it's turned out ok! Let me know how they've turned out! 

(Edit: It seems that I had too many images in a single post, so moving the explanation for the standard onto another post!)

(Double Edit: it looks like the culprit was a y-with-an-umlaut character, fun fact!) I've reverted the post back to how it was!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:28:59 PM by HappyChappy439 »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (20/01 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2020, 10:24:17 PM »
Really nice work and it's great that you're looking into a section of Late Medieval warfare that is often overlooked. The part played by John the Fearless during the HYW ( or rather, the series of conflicts that constitute what we call the HYW which is the best way to understand it) .

Keep up the great work!  8) 8) 8)

Offline HappyChappy439

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2020, 07:18:42 PM »
(Edit: reverted the banner explanation to the other post, now that I've found the culprit of my replies failing to post!)

Really nice work and it's great that you're looking into a section of Late Medieval warfare that is often overlooked. The part played by John the Fearless during the HYW ( or rather, the series of conflicts that constitute what we call the HYW which is the best way to understand it) .

Keep up the great work!  8) 8) 8)

Thanks! Though I think I may have shot myself in the foot somewhat! Whereas I wanted to keep the 1465-era Burgundians pretty limited to people who were in or around Montlhéry, with the HYW ones, I wanted to keep them as independent as possible from any one given battle...which has the unfortunate side-effect of needing to take a lot of notes to find knights, nobles and consistent contributors of soldiers across almost 30 years (Othée to Anthon)! Sometimes it's fairly simple, you get a lot of de Vergy, de Chalon, de Croy and de Luxembourg types for example, and others where either the individual knights survive the entire civil war, or people in their family do at least(so the coats of arms can get reused!) but Agincourt really thins out the numbers a lot!

It's one of those cases where Les Armées des Trois Premiers Ducs de Bourgogne is an absolute lifesaver of a source!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:28:57 PM by HappyChappy439 »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2020, 08:22:57 PM »
Philippe de Commines is your friend in this :)

Offline jamesmanto

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2020, 06:38:25 PM »
Lovely stuff.
Great command group.

Offline Breazer

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2020, 09:09:38 AM »
Very cool command Happy, also... is it possible the banner carries Dutch words? It's as if i see an old spelling of "I Love" in Dutch. I might be entirely wrong here and be seeing things.

Offline HappyChappy439

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2020, 07:58:42 PM »
Very cool command Happy, also... is it possible the banner carries Dutch words? It's as if i see an old spelling of "I Love" in Dutch. I might be entirely wrong here and be seeing things.

Yup! That's Dutch (or, well, Flemish) on the Banner, translating to "I hold," (though I think "I love" is definitely the modern meaning from what I've been told!) The Duke chose to use Flemish for his personal motto in part to endear himself to his new (occasionally rebellious) subjects in the County of Flanders, and partly as an implied threat to them after Othée. So the double meaning of "I hold" being that he "held" the Flemish's interests, but also that he had a hold *on* them!

Enguerrand de Monstrelet suggests that the motto is also a response to the Duke of Orléans' motto of "I challenge!" So where Orléans was challenging, Duke John responded with a motto implying "I accept!" As part of the tit-for-tat propaganda war between the two Dukes (Orléans uses a knotted branch for a symbol, so Burgundy uses a carpenter's plane, etc.)

Offline Jericho

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2020, 08:55:32 PM »
Very cool command Happy, also... is it possible the banner carries Dutch words? It's as if i see an old spelling of "I Love" in Dutch. I might be entirely wrong here and be seeing things.

I don't think it relates to love at all as it is written on the flag. A literal translation of "I love" would be "Ik hou van" (I love of).  Also the "d" isn't written or spoken in the first person.
The word used more for love would be "minnen" or "beminnen". Which can be used from romantic love to friendship.

In this context it stands for Middeldutch "houden" or "halden"; in today's Dutch "niet afstaan" or "to not yield" or "to not surrender". So to hold, guard, keep etc.

So if it was a response to the Duke of Orléans, it would be more akin to "I do not yield" as a proverbial middle finger. And it would be fitting for the man they call the Fearless.
De hem weert, ic salt hem lonen.

Plastic Warfare Blog

Offline Atheling

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2020, 09:40:52 PM »
I don't think it relates to love at all as it is written on the flag. A literal translation of "I love" would be "Ik hou van" (I love of).  Also the "d" isn't written or spoken in the first person.
The word used more for love would be "minnen" or "beminnen". Which can be used from romantic love to friendship.

In this context it stands for Middeldutch "houden" or "halden"; in today's Dutch "niet afstaan" or "to not yield" or "to not surrender". So to hold, guard, keep etc.

So if it was a response to the Duke of Orléans, it would be more akin to "I do not yield" as a proverbial middle finger. And it would be fitting for the man they call the Fearless.

The personal motto of John the Fearless seems to have been the Dutch, "Ik houd" ("I hold").

Linkage:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0Foy9GGgdcgC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=what+was+john+the+fearless%27+personal+motto&source=bl&ots=ZN9YcJe9jo&sig=ACfU3U33M6_--g-8Wqx5SP5ST6NFE1yFKg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR2cu-4qnnAhU_VRUIHRdZAdgQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=what%20was%20john%20the%20fearless'%20personal%20motto&f=false


Offline HappyChappy439

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2020, 09:45:02 PM »
For some extra reading about the motto (in French though, as a heads up!) there's a good description here:

http://base-devise.edel.univ-poitiers.fr/index.php?id=1519


Offline Breazer

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2020, 11:24:05 PM »
"I hold" makes sense too... its the same word but nowadays you would probably use different words to express that meaning. But very cool nonetheless. Also shows how little I know about history, the young uncultured pup that I am.

Offline HappyChappy439

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2020, 07:36:47 PM »
Hi again!

Given that this project will probably involve a whole heap of Men-at-arms (mounted or otherwise) I figured it would be good to get a few captains set up! I've decided to include them based on high-ranking repeat appearances in the ducal armies between 1403 and 1430 (Sorry Enguerrand de Bournonville!)

So for a start, I've put together a figure to represent one of the Princes of Orange of the house of Chalon-Arlay who supported the Dukes of Burgundy during the period, either Jehan III or Louis II, depending on whether I'm looking before or after 1418.



For the most part, the family of Chalon-Arlay were rather loyal to the Burgundian faction, and contributed a pretty impressive number of troops to the Ducal campaigns. For example, in the immediate 3 weeks after Duke John's assassination, the Prince of Orange provides 2 knights, 204 men-at-arms , 45 infantry and 4 trumpeters, on pretty short notice!

The big example of the Princes of Orange engaging in overt military action on behalf of Burgundy is probably the Battle of Anthon in 1430, where Louis II is defeated by the Dauphin's forces (to such an extent it severely damages the Burgundian military presence in the South of France!). I've not seen Anthon get much attention in wargaming, so I wanted to give myself the option of fielding an Anthon-focused force, just in case!

There were (naturally) members of the family who weren't on such good terms with the Burgundians, and Louis Count of Tonerre waged a private war on Duke John the Fearless for a time! Which thankfully gives a bit of leeway if I want to field some adversaries to the Burgundians too! 

The Chalon-Arlay coat of arms was quite fiddly to paint, especially on the sleeves, so I hope it's come out ok!




Offline Atheling

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2020, 07:45:08 PM »
Nice work. It's good to see you have a real passion for your subject  8)

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2020, 07:58:38 PM »
Aha, what a coincidence!

I've been researching the Princes of Orange myself, and am planning a figure for the one who was around in 1477 - he switched sides from France to Burgundy (Duchess Mary and her husband Maximilian), and led a rebellion against the French in the recently occupied County of Burgundy (which he'd actually help conquer in the first place). He's got very nice heraldry, so I'm looking forward to getting him done.

Yours has turned out very nice, well done. The freehand heraldry is impressive.