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Author Topic: generic question on Whites uniforms  (Read 3186 times)

Offline italwars

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generic question on Whites uniforms
« on: May 08, 2019, 01:57:37 PM »
Hello
maybe my question is too much naive but i need some simple info on pair of querry i have on White RCW army appearance and possibility to represent them on wargame armies...
i only play, for that period, with 1:72-20mm minis..possibly plastics and at at a  low budget...so the ideal would be to use existing ranges or convert similar ones like the Hat WW1 Russians..or even WW2 ones like Airfix of which i have tons by replacing heads..
I know that i can find  on line many illustrations of beautiful uniformed units of the White's Armies..above with colourful headgears...But whatt i did'nt understand is:
- Did some or a majority of inf. (or even artillery units)  units sported a "white" tunic? i'm referring to privates not only officers ..i suppose similar to the pre WW1 kaki one but in white.? cause i would like to depict , if historically accurate, a core of infantry units with a white tunic
- As i would like to use plastic WW1 infantry from Hat  (or also converted WW2 one ) may i use soldiers equiped with the typical blanket across the body..or, as i saw in many illustrations, Whites units did'nt wear it anymore ...the ideal would be, for me, white tunics with dark (blue, grey, brown or green) blanket across body
thanks in advance for your patience and your suggestions
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 02:04:17 PM by italwars »

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2019, 03:23:22 AM »
White shirts are either prewar stocks of uniforms from the tsar warehouses, or shirts that were sewn from the currently available fabric. There are many cases when uniforms were sewn even from ordinary household bags of flour.
No blanket was worn over the shoulder in the Russian army. This is a folded overcoat. The color of the Russian overcoat - various shades of gray. The overcoats supplied by the allies had a corresponding color. This manner of wearing overcoats existed in the Russian army from the 19th century until the last half of the 20th century.

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2019, 04:28:20 AM »
Entirely white tunic units for the bulk of the army would be wrong.

There were some officers who had pre-war white tunics, and so a few "officer" units with former officers in the ranks had them scattered around. (The Osprey shows the Alekseevski all in white, but he was making that up.) It's not a hugely practical colour, so hardly surprising.

WWI and WWII figures tend to have formal equipment like entrenching tools and packs that weren't worn by RCW units. I don't like that. Your mileage may vary.

If I were looking to do a period on the cheap, then I wouldn't do RCW. Or I'd do it in 10mm.

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2019, 05:10:23 AM »
White shirts have never been a part of the regulated clothes of the Russian officer. There was a white jacket, but this is an extremely rare thing during the Civil War. White shirts (like black ones) for officers are a subject that appeared during the Civil War, and, by the way, was used as the distinction of some regiments of the white army.
The officers during the First World War were allowed to use shirts of protective color, on the model of soldiers.

Offline italwars

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2019, 06:00:17 AM »
Thanks for the replies..probably i used, in my question, some wrong names like tunic, jacket..
by "shirt" you're referring to the Gymnastyorka ?   and in that case i understand that you're telling me that white ones were, by the time of Civil War, only sported by some officers and, in some few cases, by units formed by officers only?..in practice quite rare and, at best , intermixed with a majority of darker (kaki) Gymnastyorka ?
as an example..i 'm trying to understand if i could paint my RCW minis with the very elegant uniform that is represented, Cuprum, in the pict of your avatar.
thanks
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 06:04:23 AM by italwars »

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2019, 05:03:08 PM »
White gimnastorka (gymnastic shirt) was used in the Russian army before the Russian-Japanese war of 1905. It was intended only for soldiers (although it was sometimes used by officers in a hot climate - but by personal initiative). Since the white color was uncamouflage, the white shirt was replaced with the same, but protective color.
Probably, a significant number of white shirts remained in military warehouses, which were no longer used in the army.
During the Civil War, there was a large shortage of military clothing (and not just military clothing — any other). Military-style clothing was even forcibly seized from the population in order to dress soldiers in all the warring armies. Naturally, all available stocks of uniforms, including obsolete and parade, were extracted from military warehouses.
In the white armies in the south of Russia, white (and black) gimnastorkas were spread quite widely. For some white military units, it was a regulated uniform. But she also wore the function of the award - the right to wear the “colored” uniform had to be earned, proving this right in battle. I assume that the use of obsolete gimnastorkas from the period before 1905 initially contributed to the formation of this tradition.
In Central Asia, white gimnastorkas were widely used in the Red Army. It was promoted by the local climate, and white tunic is precisely manufactured centrally.

If you want to use white gymnasts in the White Army in the South of Russia, they are best suited for veteran units, which in fact, often at the initial stage, consisted only of officers who fought as ordinary soldiers.

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 02:34:29 AM »
You say that some units had white gymnastiorkas as regulation Cuprum, but which units? Because you never see any photos of units in white. Apparently the Markov artillery were meant to wear white, but they were still largely ex-officers quite a long time after the infantry were not. (I know the Russian Army did have some after the evacuation in the Crimea, but that's hardly relevant.)

A lot of the photos do show other ranks in very pale khaki, bleached over time by the sun, but not white. Otherwise white is senior officers, especially in the rear areas.

Italwars: Cuprum's avatar is a Soviet soldier in Central Asia, from the film White Sun of the Desert.

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2019, 04:12:54 AM »
To avoid a debate about whether white is fabric, or faded from the sun and laundry, I use color drawings from contemporaries.
Here are pictures from the diary of the White Guard Alexander Sudoplatov (he served in the Alekseevsky regiment). By the way, one of the drawings closes the question with an error from Osprey, where the soldier from the Samursky regiment is depicted incorrectly.







Here is a drawing from a set of postcards with the name "Types of Civil War", published in the 20s by the White Guards-immigrants. And the reconstruction of the soldier Alekseevsky regiment, created on its basis.





Here is a real white gymnastiorka White Guardsman (white is not clean enough, which means using any available fabric).



And now photos of various elite regiments of the Whites in the South of Russia. I got the impression that the black and white gymnastiorkas were used on an equal from officers. Privates in white gymnasts are much less common.




The commander of the battalion Alekseevsky regiment, with his wife - adjutant of this battalion. 1919




Soldiers and officers of the Drozdovsky regiment.




Kornilov regiment.




Markov regiment.




The crew of the armored train "General Markov"




The crew of the tank "General Drozdovsky"

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2019, 04:22:54 AM »
And this is already red in Turkestan. The Bolshevik military leader Frunze bypasses the guard of honor. 1920


Offline italwars

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2019, 06:33:16 PM »
Cuprum....thanks very much for sharing this excellent and rare infos from your archive..i'm much in debt with you.i'm at total disposition with everything Italian you could need ...
your answers and picts solve many questions and doubts i had....i also understand that white fatigue shirt would find an iconic and appropriate use also in hot climate...so , i suppose, as the te film to which your avatar image refers, for depicting units (reds) fighting vs asiatic/muslim rebels during and after RCW...another minor front that i m interested...
now i understand also what i suspect i like to think..that the white fatigue shirt or tunic could be a symbol of tradition ...which is my very cup of tea  ;)if i have to choose a side and depict a unit that i could like among those engaged in RCW...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 06:35:12 PM by italwars »

Offline marianas_gamer

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 09:43:28 PM »
Incredible photos Cuprum! (and that amazing journal!!!) I also enjoy any time that we can get a discussion like this going between Mark and Cuprum. Thanks fellas for sharing your years of research with us!!
Lon
Got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight.

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2019, 11:38:53 PM »
Sorry, Cuprum, I think I wasn't clear enough.

Plenty of white officers wore white Gymnastiorkas -- my own wargames units contain them.

Were there any White units for which it was what everyone was expected to wear? There were a few units scattered around that wore black as the standard uniform, but my only reference to white is the Markov artillery.

The illustrations of Drozdovsky show them largely in white. But photographs -- yours included above -- show it was far from the most common. Since they tried to keep the traditions of an Imperial rifle regiment, it would have been odd to change from the khaki.

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2019, 04:06:33 PM »
I have no specific orders on the use of white gymnastorkas in the Volunteer Army. However, this is a fairly common situation with other characteristic items of uniforms in both whites and reds. However, in the article by A. Deryabin from the magazine “Zeughgauz” No. 1 for 1991 there is a mention that for the 1st Officer Battalion (which later became an part of the 1st Markovsky Officer Regiment), a feld uniform was developed in 1917, in which the color of the uniform (tunic and breeches) was adopted black. But there was also a parade uniform of the battalion with a predominance of white color (including a white gymnastorka). This project was approved by the commander of the Volunteer Army Denikin. I think the fashion for the white gymnastorka goes exactly from here.

The fact that you do not see uniformly uniformed units is quite natural. A uniform uniform was always lacking (even the English one, which was supplied in abundance). Accordingly, a new uniform appeared irregularly, completely different models, only for a part of the personnel, moreover, in combat conditions it quickly failed, being replaced by what it would have to do, including stripping prisoners and using civilian clothes. The officers could still afford to sew the "parade" gymnastorkas at their own expense, the soldiers - hardly.

Offline cuprum

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2019, 04:12:10 PM »
And one more thing.  If white tunics are faded clothes, then why don't I see trousers that have faded to the same condition, although they are sewn from the same fabric?

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: generic question on Whites uniforms
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2019, 05:01:34 AM »
And one more thing.  If white tunics are faded clothes, then why don't I see trousers that have faded to the same condition, although they are sewn from the same fabric?

You do see them. If you look at the photo of the trooper of the Armoured Train Markov you can see men with very pale, basically white, trousers. I have photos of Red Army men in similarly faded trousers.

White Officers and Red Commanders, and so many of our photos are of officers, had nicer trousers than the norm so they don't ever seem to have faded that way (you can see that they are much heavier weight and I suspect they have some wool in them). Once you start looking at lower ranks you see the faded ones more.

Almost all the representations of WWI men seem to have paler shirts than trousers, and many of the shirts seem to have started out very pale. So it seems reasonable that more of the shirts were washed out. But it did happen to the trousers too.