Ethics , re casting a defunct range illegally ?

[Lysandros]

Its a dilemma but l have a 3/4 finished project.
A very unpopular range in 40mm ( nearly everything doesn't sell in this scale) has been put on the scrap heap. The manufacturer has no interest bringing it back after being contacted.
There are no alternative manufacturer's  that can be used.
A lot of money has been invested but with no chance of completion do you take it on your own hands to finish a project , do you recast the figures (at great expense ) ?
About 200 figs are needed so mathematically  its not viable but you have no choice . Does the manufacturer  have a responsibility?
This would never be for resale, as l dont think there is any market for them .
What would you suggest?

[Khadrin Stonetooth]

I don't even understand why you ask if the manufacturer has a responsability in this. I think he realised this was going nowhere as too few people were interested and that's the end of it. I doubt he promised he will provide a full range. I also doubt he put a gun on your head and said buy my stuff or I'll shoot you. For me, you decided to choose something unpopular, it was your choice. My take on this is too bad, you chose wrong now move to another project.

[Tactalvanic]

Its not viable so you have no choice?

Surely that is the choice - its not viable...

Collections of incomplete projects are a serious contender as being a completely separate hobby in and of themselves.

Although I can understand the frustration and upset you may be feeling, it is a choice, bitter or worse, and unfortunately it seems the manufacturer has already made it, and sensibly cut their loses.

Its probably going to taste just as bad for you as it did for them.

[tin shed gamer]

The manufacturer has no responsibility to you for pulling an unprofitable range .(Other wise warlord and GW would be getting sued on a daily basis.)
I understand it can be frustrating as a collector.But from the other side of the coin I've had people stamp their feet at me and scream ' Ive got the world of tanks for nothing' when I've declined to sculpt an obscure prototype that was never actually finished.Then come back for round two of feet stamping an hour later.
If your genuinely interested in such a project and you know that what you require has actually been sculpted and production moulded.Then I'd talk to the manufacturer again.If it's a small company which casts in house.Then there's no real reason why they'd turn down a commissioned spin of 200 figures if you were willing to pay for all at once.
A consideration and a concession you may have to make is purchasing a whole spin of the mould.
It's something a lot gamers don't quite grasp.When asking for a single figure from a pack.Is that the figure is often on a 16 figure multi pose mould . So that one figure actually costs the manufacturer considerably more than your willing to pay as the metal for the spin needs melting and the machines powering.Once you have your figure then the manufacturer has 15 unusable castings as its now an incomplete spin so the have to be melted down and recast. In effect your one figure actually takes the energy and resources of 32 figures to put the manufacturer back to where he was before you bought a single figure.(Even taking into account that there may three complete four figure sets left from the first spin. As you cant spin just one figure on a 16 figure mould nor do you keep an over stock of incomplete spins.that short spin has to be recast to become effective.)
In reality you could be looking at purchasing well over the 200 you require.
If you want to recast yourself then your into dodgy ground as it is illegal regardless of it being oop and for personal use.
Your on slightly safe ground if you modify and convert the figures before casting for personal use as that more likely to fall into the fan art category.IF your daft enough to then try and sell those castings your breaking the law again.

Or simply change the original brief down to a rule system or concept that doesn't require so many figures and take pride in the fact you've such a large collection of OOP figures already and keep an eye out for more on auction sites.

[nicknorthstar]

The first thing to say is do not recast. I'm saying that as me personally, but I'm also saying as the owner of this forum, there will not be threads on here that condone it, because it is illegal.

Secondly though, it seems odd a manufacturer wouldn't do a 'one off' order for 200+ figures, that's good money by anyone's standards. Perhaps go back to them with a firm proposition? Or maybe they'd sell you the moulds and they'll be yours then.

Nick

[Lysandros]

The first thing to say is do not recast. I'm saying that as me personally, but I'm also saying as the owner of this forum, there will not be threads on here that condone it, because it is illegal.

Secondly though, it seems odd a manufacturer wouldn't do a 'one off' order for 200+ figures, that's good money by anyone's standards. Perhaps go back to them with a firm proposition? Or maybe they'd sell you the moulds and they'll be yours then.

Nick

I will try to go to back to them but l dont think 99% sure they are not interested.
They have far bigger fish to fry , they are very high end and deal mainly in large collecter figs.
This was a project that was a side line for them .

[Lysandros]

The manufacturer has no responsibility to you for pulling an unprofitable range .(Other wise warlord and GW would be getting sued on a daily basis.)
I understand it can be frustrating as a collector.But from the other side of the coin I've had people stamp their feet at me and scream ' Ive got the world of tanks for nothing' when I've declined to sculpt an obscure prototype that was never actually finished.Then come back for round two of feet stamping an hour later.
If your genuinely interested in such a project and you know that what you require has actually been sculpted and production moulded.Then I'd talk to the manufacturer again.If it's a small company which casts in house.Then there's no real reason why they'd turn down a commissioned spin of 200 figures if you were willing to pay for all at once.
A consideration and a concession you may have to make is purchasing a whole spin of the mould.
It's something a lot gamers don't quite grasp.When asking for a single figure from a pack.Is that the figure is often on a 16 figure multi pose mould . So that one figure actually costs the manufacturer considerably more than your willing to pay as the metal for the spin needs melting and the machines powering.Once you have your figure then the manufacturer has 15 unusable castings as its now an incomplete spin so the have to be melted down and recast. In effect your one figure actually takes the energy and resources of 32 figures to put the manufacturer back to where he was before you bought a single figure.(Even taking into account that there may three complete four figure sets left from the first spin. As you cant spin just one figure on a 16 figure mould nor do you keep an over stock of incomplete spins.that short spin has to be recast to become effective.)
In reality you could be looking at purchasing well over the 200 you require.
If you want to recast yourself then your into dodgy ground as it is illegal regardless of it being oop and for personal use.
Your on slightly safe ground if you modify and convert the figures before casting for personal use as that more likely to fall into the fan art category.IF your daft enough to then try and sell those castings your breaking the law again.

Or simply change the original brief down to a rule system or concept that doesn't require so many figures and take pride in the fact you've such a large collection of OOP figures already and keep an eye out for more on auction sites.

Nobody but me is  interested in them .
I would never never  sell these as lm not driven by any money but to finish a collection.

[Duncan McDane]

Then ask them permission if they're fine with you having someone else cast up your missing models and/or even expanding it with new sculpts, if you want to.

[Silent Invader]

The first thing to say is do not recast. I'm saying that as me personally, but I'm also saying as the owner of this forum, there will not be threads on here that condone it, because it is illegal.

Surely that para is the end of discussion on recasts?

Whether or not you intend to sell them is irrelevant.

[Dolmot]

Surely that para is the end of discussion on recasts?

Whether or not you intend to sell them is irrelevant.

I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to bring this up but...

At least the Finnish legislation quite explicitly allows producing "a few" copies of copyrighted works for yourself and close relatives. (What counts as "a few" and the acceptable circle of people is not very well defined.) Usually you can even commission those copies. However, sculptures and such are excluded there, thus you'd have to produce the copies yourself.

I won't really take a stance here on whether it recommendable, encouraged or morally right and under which circumstances. Nevertheless, my point is that "it's illegal" is not a universal truth. One should always be careful with making such statements on an international forum. Of course, in some matters we have to follow a specific legislation or the smallest intersection of them (where the mere discussion or display might be illegal), but I don't see why simply stating the differences in local jurisdictions should be prohibited. Laws are not only for banning this-and-that. Often they grant you rights as well, and those are the other, equally important side of the coin.

So, regarding the strictly legal aspects, do your own research in your own country. Selling or even handing out such copies for free is most likely banned in any country following the Berne Convention, but I don't want to make any final claims about that, because there would be the risk of giving false advice there too.

Similar discussion tends to arise in topics like 80s computer games or old music releases, where the company/label has folded ages ago and there's barely any way to acquire a legit copy. Consequently there's a strong temptation to consider such works "abandonware" (which isn't a proper legal term in any way) and thus produce your own copies with no apparent harm done. However, sometimes the state of matters may still change. For example, I've seen album rights acquired and represses made when the second-hand prices have skyrocketed. Then you have a legit source again, and trying to meet the demand with unofficial copies (even if technically legal or "harmless") may actually make things worse regarding the proper re-release. It happens with miniatures too. Of course, it may take a lot of patience, and in many cases such re-releases never happen, unfortunately.

Anyway, if you can contact the manufacturer, I'd also recommend that route first for possible solutions. Often people can be surprisingly reasonable if you approach them tactfully.

[tin shed gamer]

I think its fair to say Nick has made his stance quite clear.regardless of your geographical location.It's not a topic open for discussion.

[Lysandros]

Thanks for all your comments .
Interesting to get a perspective.

[Lysandros]

" special requests are disruptive to our production schedule, something we are not willing to do."

Sadly that closes any direct approach. 

[Captain Harlock]

In your place i would ask their permission for a recast by myself. If they are not intersted in doing business with you, or anyone else, then logically they should give you their blessings as long as it is for your own use and not commercial.

[Harry Faversham]

I'd have just kept mi' gob shut...
and got on finishing the army myself!