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Author Topic: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.  (Read 10751 times)

Offline muggins

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2019, 07:09:36 PM »
As a person who isn't really into Ancient gaming, this game is going to be my first foray. I'm excited because I don't have to paint 1,000,000 models and it is in my preferred scale (28mm). While it may have issues with tactics / equipment applied down to too small of a model count, I can forgive that as it'll be faster and I can get into the period.

Offline Muzfish4

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2019, 12:19:08 PM »
beside having some literary evidence of small heavy infantry detachment in Hellenistic times (and with various degree of success), c

Intriguing - can you tell me where I could find this literary evidence?

Offline Arrigo

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2019, 04:00:33 PM »
Okay, going off my mind, need to dig out physical  stuff and right now I am not in the mood, I just took a seat after switching stuff in the miniature boxes... it is July, I am lazy.   lol

but there are references to small groups of pikemens in the bible during the Maccabean insurrection. Some researcher  interpreted them as  thureophoroi too.  Also there are references to pezetairoi involved in some flying columns during some of Alexander pacification operations after Gaugamela. The caveat here is that they were not dozens of troops, but small full fledged columns (I think a couple of thousands troops on the small side of estimates, and they included mounted units and light support. Now, this is not concrete evidence of skirmish phalanx, but certainly could make a case of plausible  use of Phalanx units in smaller operations, beside the full fledged, whole army battles there were smaller operation that required a battle line, but were not the high stake (and high personalities) battles ancient historians loved. Not Macedonian, but in Thucydides and Xenophon there are mention to small columns with Hoplite contingents.  Of course the big caveat is that if not properly supported they could be decimated (what Hiphicrates did at Corinth to the Spartans). 

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Offline Tokhuah

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2019, 04:06:25 PM »
Regarding the round vs square base comment, some associate square based historical miniatures games with a dry, slow moving, rivet counting play experience and are immediately turned off.  I will not argue the correctness of this, only the reality of it being a perception.  How is SPQR potentially different? For example, when a 40k Kill Team player sees hero driven ancients running around on round bases and tossing fist fulls of dice it will immediately have a look and feel of familiarity to their 'modern' war game sensibilities.  Based on what I know, without having the rule book in my hands yet, I think SPQR is focused more on the general pool of table top miniatures players rather than on the historic focused players.
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Offline D. Brownie

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #154 on: July 19, 2019, 07:56:51 AM »
Okay, going off my mind, need to dig out physical  stuff and right now I am not in the mood, I just took a seat after switching stuff in the miniature boxes... it is July, I am lazy.   lol

but there are references to small groups of pikemens in the bible during the Maccabean insurrection. Some researcher  interpreted them as  thureophoroi too.  Also there are references to pezetairoi involved in some flying columns during some of Alexander pacification operations after Gaugamela. The caveat here is that they were not dozens of troops, but small full fledged columns (I think a couple of thousands troops on the small side of estimates, and they included mounted units and light support. Now, this is not concrete evidence of skirmish phalanx, but certainly could make a case of plausible  use of Phalanx units in smaller operations, beside the full fledged, whole army battles there were smaller operation that required a battle line, but were not the high stake (and high personalities) battles ancient historians loved. Not Macedonian, but in Thucydides and Xenophon there are mention to small columns with Hoplite contingents.  Of course the big caveat is that if not properly supported they could be decimated (what Hiphicrates did at Corinth to the Spartans).

Hi,
in the thoughts of not specialists people Macedonians soldiers are what you see in SPQR warband. But there were many other kind of troops... If you want a fun gamey game all Is ok, but please don't call It historical, unless You consider historical sorces TV series like BRITANNIA or games like Rome Total War. You use terms with a bit of confusion. Phalanx for example... Hoplites and macedonian pezetairoi are totally different. Well armoured with armour and big shield and armed (2m spear + sword) vs low or no armoured, a small shield, only a very small sword for melee and above all a long long pole (5/6m) that make a big and compact group of them virtually indistructible frontally but give a very very small manouvrability, totally incompatibile with skirmish tasks.
(a small detachement of macedonian phalangites Is a dead detachement).
As I said if you want to play only for fun Is All ok, but for me a skirmish macedonian phalanx Is like an artillery battery of WWI that charges enemy trenches.
But I'm only a boring wargamer, with a degree in archaeology and a special interest in hellenism and above all Macedonia.
Davide http://www.mondoclassico.it/

Offline D. Brownie

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #155 on: July 19, 2019, 08:08:33 AM »
This Is One of my book about macedonian warfare, specifically about Macedonian phalanx...

Offline jetengine

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #156 on: July 19, 2019, 09:32:28 AM »
Brownie, on the one hand I respect that you want historical accuracy. On the otherhand this isnt the kind of game your going to get it from and you look like a spoilsport and a gatekeeper from the way your talking and posting. If you want more 'accurate' historical gaming then it starts with getting people interested like this.

Offline Lost Egg

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #157 on: July 19, 2019, 09:41:47 AM »
Perhaps any confusion over the historical accuracy of the game highlights a potential problem in how it's been marketed? For my part I assumed it was going the route of historic as I think of Warlord as producing historic games (excluding Erehwon & Antares) which is how they started. I've no history with Warlord's games so know nothing of their historical accuracy. The artwork shown so far looks like the style used previously by them and like I would expect to see in an Osprey or other military history book, so I think it's fair to assume that many people would expect the game to be historically accurate.

Ideally a more heroic focused form of game should have artwork that reflects this but Warlord is, understandably, going to be reluctant to get new art done for a game that is unlikely to make them a lot of money...they are going to want to use as much art that they already have as they can. This makes sense.

Offline jetengine

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #158 on: July 19, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »
Warlord splits between semi accurate historical games and hollywood history. The line is usually defined by player choice and how focused you are on 100% accuracy.

Offline Arrigo

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #159 on: July 19, 2019, 10:24:16 AM »
Quote
Hi,
in the thoughts of not specialists people Macedonians soldiers are what you see in SPQR warband. But there were many other kind of troops... If you want a fun gamey game all Is ok, but please don't call It historical, unless You consider historical sorces TV series like BRITANNIA or games like Rome Total War. You use terms with a bit of confusion. Phalanx for example... Hoplites and macedonian pezetairoi are totally different

Some historians (Adrian Goldsworthy for example) considered RTW sufficiently historical for some purposes... it is also a good idea to not assume famliliarit of lack of thereof on a specific topic from internet posters... one could be surprised.  lol

You are right that a Pezetairoi and a Hoplite are different, and I said that they were different, but I used the example to:

1) show that close order heavy troops were used in 'smallish' formation
2) that as D. Brownie points out, they can end up in troubles.

What I think is confusing everyone, is the scale. D. Brownie assumes a  1 to 1 game and so yes, on paper, close order troops in a pike phalanx is largely out of place (except if you assume that you can do what the British Army calls tactical vignettes, zooming in on a specific segment of a battle, here a Phalanx is perfectly plausible and 'on' place). Other people, like me, thinks that Warlord has fudged a bit with exact scale, as other rules have basically done, including quite accurate  one as Sharp Practice (even in its 1st edition).

As confusion about Macedonian/hellenistic infantry, often is due not by reader ignorance, but by ancient writers lack of details. Anyway going back to Alexander pezetairoi, during his invasion of Bactria, in an ambush by Spitamenes, he lost a Phalanx Taxeis supported by lights and cavalry. This means that pezetairoi were indeed used in smaller mixed  'flying columns'. It is also worth that according to Carl Otis Schuster, heavy losses in Taxeis during the first phase of the campaign led Alexander to change tactics, and also increase recruitment of locals and mercenaries.

We have to be very careful with adopting unchangeable truth in ancient warfare, after all has Dominic Rathbone (Head, Department of Classics, KCL) once said, 'Ancient History is a total mess (Actual words: 'La storia antica e' un gran casino' said with funny movie Italian accent).

As SPQR... judgement should be reserved when the game is read and played, and certainly from the initial review there could be  a case that Warlord have aimed to a low figures count version of WH historical to promote historical wargaming to non historical players.

Another element is that the fact that you can do something that looks historically wrong  in a game does not mean that it will succeed, or take some kind of troops that seems out of place does not mean that they will perform well...

As for the art... Warlord has some sort of relationship with Osprey, so it is reasonable they use osprey art or artist...

as I said... let's see the game before bashing it.

Offline D. Brownie

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #160 on: July 19, 2019, 10:26:52 AM »
I posted what I've posted since After some answers After my indication about a matter of fact about the functionining of phalangites that Is incompatible with a skirmish /warband Wargame ("no, it's possibile..." or "you are the typical boring historical wargamer..." Are the Key concepts). Actually not, because I don't play historical wargames since are boring... I play fantasy skirmish. I have some DBA armies with some cms of dust above... (Hope for the best with Clash of Spears)
The problem of the sarissae goes beyond simple historical accuracy. Historical accuracy maybe regards the problem if a small Number of Roman legionaries would be Better of the same small Number of gaulish/ german warriors... How can a man with a 5/6 meters long pole move fast and in difficult grounds or do other things other than stay in Place or Advance straightforward?
If you want to play like this I have no problem, but do not pretend it's historical...
Why Simply don't use light infantry or hypaspists in a Macedonian Alexandrian warband? Because in common thoughts Macedonians are Pikemen?

Offline D. Brownie

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #161 on: July 19, 2019, 10:32:01 AM »
An Alexandrian taxis Is around 1500 men.... Not 20. And yes, for me the ratio in a warband/skirmish game Is 1:1; otherwise you are playing a Mass Battle with Little models as all other historical wargames.

Offline CommanderBaker

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2019, 03:49:11 PM »
Hi guys!
What to Say about this?
http://www.warlordgames.com/collecting-spqr-darrens-macedonians/
I was afraid It might happen... A macedonian phalanx in a skirmish, or warband if you prefer, situation. The macedonian general should be a fool. At the best would be completely useless, but probably a disaster in the real world.
Totally Unreal...
Davide

It's not supposed to be real, its a warband game, themed around the ancients, historically inspired.

Hi Arrigo. It's not a matter of rules... A small detachement of pezetairoi armed with sarissae Simply don't work in the real world....
     

Once again that's nice but not the point.

Realistically GW/Warlord/Etc are realising that people in this day and age (and possibly in the future depebding on economics etc) don't have time/money/space for bigger games. Skirmish and Warband games are the in thing. Will it cycle back ? Maybe. But if they want to keep up they need to go smaller and historicals will have to join them.
 

This is EXACTLY the point.

Hi,
in the thoughts of not specialists people Macedonians soldiers are what you see in SPQR warband. But there were many other kind of troops... If you want a fun gamey game all Is ok, but please don't call It historical, unless You consider historical sorces TV series like BRITANNIA or games like Rome Total War. You use terms with a bit of confusion. Phalanx for example... Hoplites and macedonian pezetairoi are totally different. Well armoured with armour and big shield and armed (2m spear + sword) vs low or no armoured, a small shield, only a very small sword for melee and above all a long long pole (5/6m) that make a big and compact group of them virtually indistructible frontally but give a very very small manouvrability, totally incompatibile with skirmish tasks.
(a small detachement of macedonian phalangites Is a dead detachement).
As I said if you want to play only for fun Is All ok, but for me a skirmish macedonian phalanx Is like an artillery battery of WWI that charges enemy trenches.
But I'm only a boring wargamer, with a degree in archaeology and a special interest in hellenism and above all Macedonia.
Davide http://www.mondoclassico.it/

Its perfectly fine to call it historical. It historically inspired, historically themed. Historically accurate? No, its Historical Fiction. Notice all of the uses of the word 'historical' here?

I posted what I've posted since After some answers After my indication about a matter of fact about the functionining of phalangites that Is incompatible with a skirmish /warband Wargame ("no, it's possibile..." or "you are the typical boring historical wargamer..." Are the Key concepts). Actually not, because I don't play historical wargames since are boring... I play fantasy skirmish. I have some DBA armies with some cms of dust above... (Hope for the best with Clash of Spears)
The problem of the sarissae goes beyond simple historical accuracy. Historical accuracy maybe regards the problem if a small Number of Roman legionaries would be Better of the same small Number of gaulish/ german warriors... How can a man with a 5/6 meters long pole move fast and in difficult grounds or do other things other than stay in Place or Advance straightforward?
If you want to play like this I have no problem, but do not pretend it's historical...
Why Simply don't use light infantry or hypaspists in a Macedonian Alexandrian warband? Because in common thoughts Macedonians are Pikemen?


I'd argue its apparent you do have a problem as you have felt the need to link websites, book pages, and mention your degree to argue a point that is in all honesty rather pointless. It should be apparent to all observers that Warlord's intent is not create the most perfect historically accurate ancients rule-set of all time. the point is to create a more accessible entry point to a time period by keeping the word 'historical', adding a pinch of Hollywood, a dash of popular RPG mechanics, and serving it with a taste of everyone's favorite parts of the armies involved. At this point the conversation has strayed far from the topic of this post and has degraded to typical internet behavior. 

This discussion needs to be put to rest and I would ask the moderators to please remove any further historical accuracy discussions from the thread.

As has already been highlighted earlier in the thread, this is a negative for this hobby. We seem to like to forget that everyone builds their armies, and picks their games for their own reasons. 

If it isn't for you that's grand. If it is, also grand. For myself in the US, where large scale historical of any kind, accurate, or hollywood like, seems to be rare if not nonexistent in some areas, games like Saga and Bolt action have been a godsend. Easy to pick up, quick to play, cheaper to get into from a time and money perspective. this fits that mold.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 03:56:35 PM by CommanderBaker »

Offline fairoaks024

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Re: SPQR - Warlord Ancients Warband game.
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2019, 07:07:26 PM »
This!

Exactly what commanderBaker said.

It's a fun game that takes its inspiration from history.

It's the ancients tabletop version of a Sharpe novel.
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