4Ground website issues?

[Daeothar]

Really sad, as they have(had?) some of the finest MDF kits in the business. Also, I was really enamored by some of the sculpts for their Fabled Realms game... 

So a good thing then that the initial posts had me finally pull the trigger and snatch up a copy of the Stoic Arms (and at a very reasonable price too I might add, from a German webstore) before it completely disappears from the market.

It was only a matter of time before I would have anyway...

[boneio]

I'm no expert, but whether they can salvage the Kickstarter is now nothing to do with the original 4Ground company and everything to do with how (and if) the new company is funded, and whether it has the assets to continue the project. If it's the same people (appears to be) then the latter is likely to be true at least in terms of the designs etc. I don't know how material assets are handled in a case like this.

We shouldn't assume this was a cynical move to slough off the debt when it's just as possible to be incompetence, bad luck, or poor trading conditions. However there's always a raised eyebrow when a company goes under but somehow the directors have access to enough funds to start a new one selling the same things...

[Chris Abbey]

I don't think there is any danger at all off 4 Ground disappearing. I wrote to there liquidator last week inquiring about what assets were for sale and the reply that I got was that a sale had already been agreed, which suggests that they will be buying back there own asset's and carrying on under a different name without there debts, as they are obviously not selling any assets off in an open market to the highest bidder.

[carlos marighela]

How would that work? Company A owned by X goes bust owing money to all and sundry, liquidator takes over and arranges sale to X who simply rebrands the company as Z? Obviously there are permutations to that scenario but there are, at least in this country, legal obligations that a liquidator must meet, the liquidator being there to act in the interest of the creditors. X or X and Y would need to have cleared their debts and have the capital to repurchase the assets.

I find it interesting that their distributor in Oz pulled the pin some months ago and I’ve noticed other retailers who had some sort of relationship elsewhere also seemed to have severed ties.

[Chris Abbey]

Well it did seem a bit odd that so early on the liquidator was not at all interested in getting bids from other parties to maximize return to creditors, just saying that a sale had already been arranged.

[bearonparade]

How would that work? Company A owned by X goes bust owing money to all and sundry, liquidator takes over and arranges sale to X who simply rebrands the company as Z? Obviously there are permutations to that scenario but there are, at least in this country, legal obligations that a liquidator must meet, the liquidator being there to act in the interest of the creditors. X or X and Y would need to have cleared their debts and have the capital to repurchase the assets.

I find it interesting that their distributor in Oz pulled the pin some months ago and I’ve noticed other retailers who had some sort of relationship elsewhere also seemed to have severed ties.

You are essentially right as that is pretty much how it works here also with a bit of a tweak. There is nothing wrong with the previous owners and/or directors purchasing the assets of the company in liquidation however the liquidator is obliged to act in the interests of the creditors.

I don't think there is any danger at all off 4 Ground disappearing. I wrote to there liquidator last week inquiring about what assets were for sale and the reply that I got was that a sale had already been agreed, which suggests that they will be buying back there own asset's and carrying on under a different name without there debts, as they are obviously not selling any assets off in an open market to the highest bidder.

This is the bit that smells bad since it would indicate that no effort was made by the liquidator to get best market value and that it has been promoted to the directors as a way to keep going and walk away from a load of debt. Unfortunately this happens a lot however most cases don't have hundreds of small claimants many of whom will be chatting on forums like this and it happens under the radar so speak.

I reckon that the KS backers, who are unsecured creditors, would be best served by sticking a claim in a.s.a.p. then requesting a creditors meeting and making sure that best value has been obtained for all the company assets, physical and intangible.

[Lardy Rich]

I have absolutely no axe to grind here, but I have been a Director of a number of UK limited companies and been involved as a consultant with numerous others, including ones who went into liquidation. 

What I will say is that if company A is funded for a kickstarter and then goes into liquidation, the directors of that company have absolutely no obligation to complete any projects that company A promised to undertake.  Company A is dead, as would be the kickstarter.  In such a case those who funded the kickstarter are in a long line of creditors and are likely to get pennies in the pound back, if indeed it is worth pursuing at all. 

However, there are some situations where the former directors of company A will voluntarily undertake to complete certain projects that their former company undertook as they have another company already up and running and wish to maintain a good ongoing relationship with their customers.  They have absolutely no legal obligation to do so.

What does seem wrong here, is that assets of the original company have been sold directly to a new company with the same directors.  There is a legal obligation for the liquidator to achieve the best possible sale value for any assets that are remaining in order to provide creditors with the best possible recompense.  That said, it is by no means unusual for the liquidator to consider another company (albeit with the same directors) as being best placed to give a reasonable price for any remaining assets.  The alternative is usually fire-sale prices to a random crowd of corporate vultures at auction. 

As stated, I have no axe to grind here and I hope that all ends amicably and nobody is out of pocket.  I just thought that I would add this on the basis that I have seen this before and there is a lot of rubbish being said on line generally (not here, it must be said). 

Cheers

Richard       

[Riley.Keith]

My frustration here is the '4Ground are good guys' comments and the lack of an actual statement.

They could be the best, nicest, most honourable people on the planet producing the best kits money can buy but the company has been liquidated for being insolvent. The dept and any obligation to anything historical left behind with it. 4Ground does not exist - oh except on their website / facebook etc where everything is fine we just changed our domain name and having a little restructure.

[mcfonz]

I won't judge until we have seen the full ramifications and all that comes out in the wash comes out so to speak.

What I will say is that if they have just left their KS backers high and dry, then simply restarting the company by changing the name etc is a really bad move.

There will be a backlash and it will damage their customer base. That in itself could take it's toll.

Unless the manage it better and at least honour the KS backers.

I was going to back the KS, but as soon as I saw they were resin printing and buying multiple printers I knew not backing it was in the end for the better. It would have been far cheaper to outsource the infantry types at least to a metal manufacturer. Printing the masters would have been fine.

And whilst I like their lasercut stuff I did find it to be pricey in comparison to others.

IMHO the best I have seen out there is Knights of Dice, which is frustrating due to them being at such a distance shipping is a killer.

A lot of companies have started to use cardboard, but I'd like to see folks use different thicknesses of wood. You can get pretty thin ply that is also flexible. Anyway, I digress...

[Andrew Rae]

I was going to back the KS, but as soon as I saw they were resin printing and buying multiple printers I knew not backing it was in the end for the better. It would have been far cheaper to outsource the infantry types at least to a metal manufacturer. Printing the masters would have been fine.

  Had to see that for myself. That’s insane. They should’ve stuck to laser cutting.

[mcfonz]

Yeah, I mean, no doubt, at some point in the future that might be the way forward, but we're not there yet. Especially considering the cost of decent printers - I mean the ones that can compete in terms of detail and zero print lines needed to match the traditionally cast metal and resin miniatures.

That's before you even take into account the amount of time it takes. A spin could have up to 16 miniatures in a mould done in a few moments. To print the same would be much more in time from my understanding.

[wkeyser]

It has been an interesting ride with what seems to have been mistake after mistake by 4Ground. However, the following are only my guesses on what went on based on the information (or lack of information) on the Kickstarter, lots of interviews on Beasts of War and other sites.

It started well and funding was achieved and it drew in about 107,000 pounds. But then the mistakes seem to have started. I think and this is only supposition, that the mistake that started all the problems was a pledge level that promised the gamers a Beta testing weekend where those that pledged would be able to play test the rules, with the figures. The problem seems to have been the date of this event, I believe that this set off the entire fiasco we are in now. As they got closer to the date they received figures from Chine which were not up to scratch and I can understand that. (However, I have had some amazing figures in plastic from chine, both the figures from Rising Sun and Nemesis are fantastic) Now they try to switch to Resin but cannot find anyone that can produce the figures in the time frame of the Beta Weekend, so they go with printed as that is in house and how hard can that be! They seem to have produced enough for the Beta weekend but now instead of switching back to Resin they go all in on the printing and lease a bunch of machines to finish the job. Now based on my guess with 437 backers I can only assume that the total number of figures must have been in the Thousands range with 50+ number of original figures in the Kickstarter, the stretch goal figures alone that would have gone to most of those 437 backers is around 9,000 figures. So non-stop printing for a year!!!!  To compound the financial drain on themselves they started to send out the terrain in a couple of shipments again a crazy business decision with just an added cost burden to the company! This seems to me to be the fundamental problem with the Kickstarter itself, I am not aware of any financial problems they might have been having which would only have compounded the problem.

What is so frustrating is that they talk about a vote to do printed but then nothing when they change a fundamental mechanic in the rules, with the originale mechanic shown in the early rules and all of the videos. Then they claim that a “number” of gamers at conventions thought this mechanic was too burdensome, however, no questions about this was asked of the 400 + backers of the game.

Still this had promised, I guess (or hope) still does, to be a rather interesting and innovative miniature game for fantasy miniature with some great ideas behind the momentum rules and use of cards to enhance and give flavor to certain races and methods of combat with a great original idea of the use of dice in the game. 

I still hope that we see the Rules, as too the figures although the 4 samples I received have the most incredible detail are rather boring, with the same old same old look of orcs, elves, human (in faux medieval armor) goblins and all the other races we have no lack of from dozens of manufactures.

This of course is all speculation and could all be wrong and completely off base but these are my assumptions and I am sticking with them as they fit my world view!!!!!

[ivor13]

Some really good insight wkeyser. And incredibly disappointing at the same time as it seems you really summed up where everything went wrong.
Fingers crossed for all involved, backers and everyone at 4Ground themselves, that things will turn out ok. I've been using 4Ground products since near the very beginning of their existence and I have loved seeing how far they have come and improved their products in that time, it will be a real shame for that KS to have ruined the company 

[mcfonz]

The biggest mistake anyone can think is that resin is a cheap option. It's cheap if it isn't proper resin and done in China, otherwise it really isn't that cheap. It rips through moulds more quickly, is more labour intensive as a result and therefore carries higher costs.

Metal comparatively is faster and more consistent in price. When you get that sort of backing and you haven't got a reliable producer, go to metal every time.

The biggest cost difference to the end user is cost of shipping. Mass producing in resin is just not practical unless you a going down the Prodos route. Otherwise you are looking at remoulding after so many casts. I've been told a mould lasts between 20-30 casts depending upon complexity...

[katie]

"IMHO the best I have seen out there is Knights of Dice, which is frustrating due to them being at such a distance shipping is a killer."

I've been buying KoD from "Shiny Games" in the UK which avoids some of the more boring aspects of shipping -- and they're nice people to deal with.

It's still not cheap terrain, but like you say the quality is awesome. It's the double and triple thickness walls that mean they can really get relief detail into them.