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Author Topic: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?  (Read 1665 times)

Offline Cat

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15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« on: June 24, 2019, 01:47:40 PM »
Any recommendations for 15mm 8th-9th century Spanish army to fight Franks et al., DBA III/35a list?  Not surprisingly, I see the Essex army pack is stuffed with much later period figures...

Any good reference illustrations?

Just starting to put together a campaign set of forces and running into a wall of El Cid blocking the lower end of the Feudal Spanish timeline.

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2019, 05:15:52 PM »
As far as I know, there are nothing specific for Christian Spanish in 8th and 9th centuries. The few illustrations you got from the period (Beato de Liébana) show mounted warriors with scarce o no armour, the odd helmet, round shields, lances (used overhead) and swords (at least the richest). The clothes were trousers and long shirts -below the hips-. Possibly, poorer warriors were less well equiped. Finally, I strongly suspect that many Christian warriors were dressed like Arabs/Berbers from the South. Mind that it was common for many of them to fight as mercenaries, even against other Christians, for the Amirs -afterwards, Caliphs- of Cordoba.

I think that a mix of Bretons (mounted) and, maybe, Carolingians, with the odd armoured figure in Arab garb, would do the trick for "knights". Irish slingers/javelinmen could represent  warriors on foot.

Offline Cat

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2019, 05:26:32 PM »
I think that a mix of Bretons (mounted) and, maybe, Carolingians, with the odd armoured figure in Arab garb, would do the trick for "knights". Irish slingers/javelinmen could represent  warriors on foot.

That's where my continued meditations this morning have been going.  I've been poking through the Baueda listings for Bretons, Basques, unarmoured Carolingian foot.  Pondering a Gothic mounted command set for nobles still sporting the old style after the Visigoths moved out.

**edit:
Hmm, Visigoths were hated ruling conquerors, so probably not a copied style.  Perhaps either Baueda's Carolingian or Swabian (etc.) Caballari for the Knight General stand then.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 07:26:34 PM by Cat »

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2019, 11:17:44 AM »
Visigoths were hated ruling conquerors, so probably not a copied style.

Early Christian kingdoms weren't rich (quite the opposite, truth be told), so probably they used whatever they could get their hands into. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I learn they used the odd Late Roman helmet... Bottom line, Visigothic equipment wouldn't be out of place, at least for 8th Century. I don't think is a bad idea if you use a mix of Gothic/Caroligian equiped nobles for your elite/command stands.

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2019, 11:28:29 AM »
Just read an article on Navarrese archeology. The author claims that in the excavations done in 1916 in the necropolis of Pamplona, remains of military indumentary showed a heavy influence of Aquitanian and Frank military equipment, rather than Visigothic. Problem is that both the remains and the report from the archeologists were lost in a fire in the 1960s, therefore there is only a short notice in a magazine from the 1920s, but not very precise.

Your idea -to my surprise-, at least for Navarre and, possibly, Aragon and Catalonia, of Carolingian rather than Gothic nobles, looks correct. Can't say for the Kingdom of Asturias, though.

Offline Cat

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2019, 02:13:44 PM »
Grrr, I hate when fires destroy records.
 
But the tantalising hint is good enough for garment purposes.  I will run with the Carolingian Caballari for the command.  Doing more poking through Baueda, I can plunder from Irish and Early Germanic figures along with the others for the rest of army with lots of pose variety and rag-tag equipment.

It's pretty easy to figure that the early Christian kingdoms in Spain weren't rich, especially after the ruling class of Visigoths largely packed up and moved to Carthage.  That would have been a big wealth drain.

Offline OB

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2019, 02:51:22 PM »
I've often wondered about what figures to use for this army too.  It was the Alans and Vandals who took the boat to Africa not the Visigoths but I guess all their kit was Roman/Germanic style.  There was an East Roman enclave in Spain so that might have provided some gear by way of trade.

Antonio's post gives us a good clue I think.  After all the Franks were the premier Catholic power of their day and Church involvement and influence ran high in those times ans Spain was on the border with Islam.

I went for round shield Frankish type mailed cavalry and more 'Roman' looking infantry mostly unarmoured, breeches and tunic and spear ad shield.  Minifigs and Donnington between them can provide a pretty diverse looking bunch of figures if that approach appeals.

Offline Cat

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2019, 03:25:26 PM »
Somewhat different looks for each kingdom would be warraranted.
 
If I wind up with too many figure choices, I might have to do multiple DBA armies!
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Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 05:43:06 PM »
It's pretty easy to figure that the early Christian kingdoms in Spain weren't rich, especially after the ruling class of Visigoths largely packed up and moved to Carthage. That would have been a big wealth drain.

Humm... I think you are mixing up the conquest of Carthage by the Vandals in the 5th Century. The Gothic elite in 8th Century -in the era of the Arab Conquest- either was co-opted by the Arabs and became Muslims themselves or went north, to Asturias, Cantabria, Galicia and Basque Country, and created small lordships that were, more or less, independent from the Emirate of Cordoba. However, it is a bit more complicated, as sometimes they recognized the overlordship of the Emirs and co-operated with them against other kingdoms. It's a fascinating period, indeed!

Offline Ataman

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 11:41:51 PM »
Hmm, Visigoths were hated ruling conquerors, so probably not a copied style.  Perhaps either Baueda's Carolingian or Swabian (etc.) Caballari for the Knight General stand then.

This is something of a long-standing misconception. Primary sources show that, by the time of the Arab Conquest, and likely nearly a century earlier than that, the social and cultural distinctions between the Goths and Romance population of Hispania had pretty much disappeared in the wake of the Visigoths' conversion to Chalcedonian Christianity and the elimination of unique laws for the two different peoples.

Offline Cat

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Re: 15mm Early Feudal Spanish?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 11:49:56 PM »
Humm... I think you are mixing up the conquest of Carthage by the Vandals in the 5th Century. The Gothic elite in 8th Century -in the era of the Arab Conquest- either was co-opted by the Arabs and became Muslims themselves or went north, to Asturias, Cantabria, Galicia and Basque Country, and created small lordships that were, more or less, independent from the Emirate of Cordoba. However, it is a bit more complicated, as sometimes they recognized the overlordship of the Emirs and co-operated with them against other kingdoms. It's a fascinating period, indeed!

Umm, yes.  Also confused with some Visigoths migrating to Africa as well after things had heated up with Clovis and sons.