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Author Topic: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts  (Read 1785 times)

Offline olicana

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First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« on: July 04, 2019, 10:14:55 AM »
Last night Peter J. and I fought our first battle using Lasalle. What did we / I think? Report here:

https://olicanalad.blogspot.com/2019/07/first-game-of-lasalle-first-thoughts.html

with pics, of course




Offline Emir of Askaristan

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2019, 11:27:31 AM »
Nice review. I agreed with much of what you've said, I quite like the rules.

Not played for a good while so may dig it out and see if I can rustle up some interest at the local club.

Offline robh

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2019, 02:23:30 PM »
They are a great set of rules, shame that the book itself is OOP and Sam has no interest in re-publishing or re-printing them. Expensive PDF only now.
I have been trying to get hold of a copy of the book for ages.

Offline olicana

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2019, 03:06:29 PM »
I managed to get mine from someone over at WD3. A bit shelf worn but worth the £20 (if memory serves, or was it £15) I paid for it. I'd try the bazaar here, or TMP, or other war game sites with a swap or sell facility. Blast them all with a wanted ad - someone will have a copy they no longer want.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 03:37:15 PM by olicana »

Offline Unlucky General

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2019, 08:50:16 PM »
As someone who deeply resists learning new rule systems and tries hard to limit the number of rule systems I have to think around, what motivates you to try new rules? By new I mean different to the ones you've been using.

Is it curiosity or was there something about what you used before which left you wanting? Or is it a club thing and you need to catch up to the trends?

My general approach (for context) is most likely framed by the number of armies I have (quite a few) across many different periods (Persian wars to 1990s).

Offline olicana

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2019, 09:43:57 PM »
I'm not big on new rules either. I might play a new set of rules a couple of times a year, mostly at LOGW weekends (scheduled for 3 a year) doing periods I don't collect for. I'm not a member of a club as such, so I don't play that many periods - though I tend to go big on the ones I do play.

Lasalle rules were recommended to me a few years ago, when I started collecting for the Peninsular (May 2015). I bought a copy second hand, I read them, put them on the shelf and I've had them kicking around since then without playing them. Recently, two people (that I don't see much) who want to come round to my place for a Napoleonic game suggested Lasalle as their rule set of choice, so I thought I'd take a second look. In preparation for that game, I did this play test. I did so with an open mind and was pleasantly surprised by them. They are not perfect - what rule set is?

In the last six or seven years, looking at my rules shelf, I've bought five sets of new rules (three for Napoleonics because that's my 'new period'). I've now played four of those sets (including two Napoleonic sets). The fifth, un-played set, is General de Brigade (Deluxe Ed.) - which I bought on a whim when scouting around for Napoleonic rules and will probably never play (even though they are highly regarded by some) simply because they look too involved and they are not element based. It's the first set of rules I've bought on a whim in 25 years or more - silly me. All of the other sets were recommended by friends I trust and know the kind of rules I'm into.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 09:55:07 PM by olicana »

Online Battle Brush Sigur

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2019, 08:01:16 AM »
Thanks for the AAR! Lasalle's been on my to-play list for years as well, but I'm rather sure I'll like the rules as I'm generally impressed with Sam Mustafa's other rules sets I played so far (Rommel, Blücher, Longstreet).

Offline BaronVonJ

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2019, 01:22:47 PM »
I’ve been a big fan of Sam’s rules for a long time across the board. We use the Fast Play version Grande Armee for truly huge Nappy battles, Might & Reason for SYW and I’ve been playing a very enjoyable Longstreet ACW campaign.
No clue why he doesn’t sell printed versions anymore.

Offline olicana

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2019, 01:50:35 PM »
Message deleted
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 09:34:05 PM by olicana »

Offline aphillathehun

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2019, 02:45:09 PM »

I'm interested because of your write-up.  What kind of command friction is there in the rules?

How well does it scale up?  Could you easily get a corps on the table with multiple players?

Offline olicana

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2019, 04:02:26 PM »
I'm no expert, but I'd say 20 or so units per player would be OK. We were using small 'divisions' (of about a dozen units each) and rattled through 9 turns per player in two hours - with neither of us having played before, and only I had read the rules.

Again, I'm no expert, but:

There is little 'command friction' as such, though the upside down move sequence means that the outcome of your decisions are carried out in your opponents 'turn', throwing a slight advantage to the defender:

Sequence: 1) Player A makes reactions to enemy moving to contact, and shoots. 2) Melee is carried out. 3) Normal moves, charges and rallies. 4) End of turn stuff (including army morale checks and off table arrivals). - Over to player B.

Overall, the game we had ran very smoothly and everything was very logical. Having read some reviews since playing, there seems to be some misgiving in the ability of players being able to get two on one odds too often in melee, making massed attack columns overly powerful. That didn't happen in our game, but I could see column becoming the formation of choice. If this starts to happen it will not be much of a Peninsular game - more play required at this end to tell for sure - but a 'Peninsular War house rule' to make lines stronger (the go to formation) would not be beyond the wit of man. As with all the best rule sets, the basic mechanism is strong enough to have tweaks made to suit. Does anyone play rules without house rule tweaks?

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2019, 08:04:11 PM »
No clue why he doesn’t sell printed versions anymore.

Printing costs vs potential returns. Re-prints are a big risk. Say you need to print a minimum of 1,000 books to get a price from your printer of 5 euros per copy (I am inventing the numbers). That means that you would need to invest 5,000 euros for the re-print, without any guarantee that the sales would cover your expenses. And think that most of your potential customer base already owns a copy, so you would need to find new customers, which is more difficult and time-consuming than it looks. Why  risk 5,000 euros and waste a lot of time with a re-print if you can continue benefiting from your ruleset by simply selling PDFs whose cost for you equals zero? And it is not like your buyers can't print the PDF if they fancy, can they?

The most rational decision is not to re-print and just go with selling PDFs.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:08:14 PM by Antonio J Carrasco »

Offline olicana

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2019, 08:52:01 PM »
Being someone who benefits from PDF sales I know exactly where you are coming from - lets call them royalties, or money for old rope. I still get paid for work I did 10 years ago due to PDF sales: I don't do anything, or risk anything, for the money now - every three months I just get a 'royalties cheque' - and it's very nice!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:53:43 PM by olicana »

Offline SteveBurt

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 12:12:48 PM »
I'm no expert, but I'd say 20 or so units per player would be OK. We were using small 'divisions' (of about a dozen units each) and rattled through 9 turns per player in two hours - with neither of us having played before, and only I had read the rules.

Again, I'm no expert, but:

There is little 'command friction' as such, though the upside down move sequence means that the outcome of your decisions are carried out in your opponents 'turn', throwing a slight advantage to the defender:

Sequence: 1) Player A makes reactions to enemy moving to contact, and shoots. 2) Melee is carried out. 3) Normal moves, charges and rallies. 4) End of turn stuff (including army morale checks and off table arrivals). - Over to player B.

Overall, the game we had ran very smoothly and everything was very logical. Having read some reviews since playing, there seems to be some misgiving in the ability of players being able to get two on one odds too often in melee, making massed attack columns overly powerful. That didn't happen in our game, but I could see column becoming the formation of choice. If this starts to happen it will not be much of a Peninsular game - more play required at this end to tell for sure - but a 'Peninsular War house rule' to make lines stronger (the go to formation) would not be beyond the wit of man. As with all the best rule sets, the basic mechanism is strong enough to have tweaks made to suit. Does anyone play rules without house rule tweaks?

We use a house rule to get round this; in fact it is similar to the way Shako handles it.
A line fires at *all* of the units in its arc at full effect; so if you attack with two columns, you are effectively doubling the firepower of the line.
A more historical rule would be that if a column suffers any disorder due to fire it must deploy into line. If there are friends in the way, then both units get another disorder. This is the real reason columns didn't pack together, but it is more fiddly, so we tend to go with the simpler rule above.

The only command friction is the discipline roll required to do anything other than fire as a reaction; if you want to fall back or change formation then you may be disappointed and end up doing nothing.

Offline olicana

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Re: First game using Lasalle - my thoughts
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2019, 04:33:38 PM »
Quote
We use a house rule to get round this; in fact it is similar to the way Shako handles it.
A line fires at *all* of the units in its arc at full effect; so if you attack with two columns, you are effectively doubling the firepower of the line.
A more historical rule would be that if a column suffers any disorder due to fire it must deploy into line. If there are friends in the way, then both units get another disorder. This is the real reason columns didn't pack together, but it is more fiddly, so we tend to go with the simpler rule above.

I was thinking along the same lines. For infantry Vs infantry charges, I also thought of adding a discipline check if a disruption was caused by fire in the reaction phase - if the column fails it falls back. My reading of French column Vs British line is that the columns failed to close - they fell into disorder, stalling after one or two close range British volleys and, before they could form line, a British bayonet charge would send the French packing.

Where French line faced British line in a fire fight, both seem to done equal carnage. For some reason, the French commanders failed to accept the lesson and continued to press with columns.

I'm not up for making the Brits all conquering. I just don't want columns to be the best way to win. I'll disallow Brits from using attack column by making them follow the 'linear tactics' rule.

To make a 'game of it', I don't want completely render the column worthless. Until I've played more I will not really be able to see what rules might be overkill. I'd like a balance, and at the moment it looks like, mathematically, column decides the day in Lasalle.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 04:40:08 PM by olicana »