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Author Topic: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn  (Read 1007 times)

Offline JohnFoA

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Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« on: July 07, 2019, 12:37:35 PM »
Hi all

Okay so as far as I can work out most of the Recruit Depots were closed and their processes were passed to a series of Recruit Bns of 3 centre companies. These were then assigned to various Infantry Regiments as a 4th Bn.  Some of these units were assigned to field forces, quite a lot were broken up  to provide replacements for existing units but some fought - I am thinking particularly of units attached to Wittgenstein's 1st Corp.  So my question is does anyone know what sword knots and pompoms were used by these units?

The only reference I can find to a fourth Bn is in L.Spring; Uniforms of the Russian Army Vol1 Infantry and this specifically refers to Perobrazhenski

Does anyone have anything?

Same question would apply to the converged Guards Depot Regt (of 2, three company Bns), which fought at both Polotsks.  The Guard famously had three field Bns so what did Depot/Recruit company(ies) use for Pompom and sword knots??

Thanks

John
On the balance the helicopter gunship is also mightier than the sword

Offline cuprum

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2019, 03:17:25 PM »
I will try to help you, although this is not my period.
The book Ulyanov I. - "Russian infantry in battle. 1812" states that the recruits had special clothes, created in the image of the army, but from gray cloth of various shades (self-woven coarse peasant cloth). Gray cloth cloths were supposed to be recruits: a soldier-style caftan with buttons covered with the same cloth; pants; tie; satchel; forage cap; overcoat. The general army type was: summer pants (white); soldier's boots; shirt.



In the picture: Militiaman assigned to the infantry regiment. Recruit a grenadier company of one of the newly formed regiments with numbers from the 9th to the 14th. Private musketeer of the 1st battalion of the infantry regiment.

As I understand it, the saber was not given out to the recruits at all.

In the guards regiments before the war, no recruits were received. Guard replenished with the best people selected from the entire army. During the war, the best recruits were sent to the guard regiments. But the book does not indicate how they were uniform. I think that it was unlikely that anyone engaged in dressing them in another uniform during the war.

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2019, 08:54:45 PM »
Thanks for info.  I had seen about Recruit grey,  but I was hoping there would bwe some details on shoulder straps.
 
I really appreciate the time you have taken to translate 

Regards John

Offline cuprum

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2019, 02:57:41 AM »
From April 1812, the formation of numbered regiments began (1 - 8th infantry, 1 - 4th egers) from the recruits of the last conscription. The employees of these regiments were supplied with general-infantry and general-egers uniform without shoulder straps and a full set of military equipment; while the satchels were made of calf hides (wool outwards).

In July, from the 2nd line recruiting depot - 6 more infantry regiments were formed (9th - 14th). Neither time nor material was enough for their uniform;  therefore, the lower ranks were left gray recruiting uniforms (the numbers of the regiment from yellow cord were sewn on gray shoulder straps) and gray forage caps (with colored company piping and yellow  code, on the musketeers' company). Soldiers were given belts for bayonet sheaths; backswords and sword knots were received only by non-commissioned officers and musicians (non-commissioned officers' uniforms were trimmed with galloon, and the musicians with white braid). The grenadiers and shooters provided the three-lights with grenades for decoration on cartridge cases. Together with recruits and militias soldiers of the new 18 numbered regiments were sent for replenish infantry regiments of the army.

In September, the formation of new second battalions of recruits began for a number of regiments of the 6th and 21st divisions, as well as for the Voronezh Infantry Regiment. The lower ranks of the battalions continued to wear recruiting uniforms and overcoats; all gave black Jaeger  equipment (on the cartridge bags grenadier company three-lights grenadas were attached, infantry companies — one-lights grenada, Jaegers — regimental numbers) and received ordinary leather satchels.

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 09:13:48 PM »
 Brilliant thanks.  Is there any info on what swordknots thw NCO s had and or the piping for the forage caps.

Was it all same as the illustration you put up earlier?   Also do you have any more illustrations of the militia or can reference a source for me.  I am painting up some for October battles.

Many thanks for your help.

Offline cuprum

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 02:09:27 AM »
I think that in the recruit regiments and battalions the same coloring system was adopted swordknots had or the piping for the forage caps as in the other infantry. But when distributing recruits to combat regiments, hardly anyone was involved in changing this color, according to the new recruit place in the regiment, so I think there was no system here.
I can give a standard table of color differences in the army, if it is necessary.

In the army regiments were sent as a replenishment, as I understand it, mainly warriors of the Moscow and Smolensk militias. Their uniform is widely known. But we must bear in mind that this is only the prescribed uniform. Warriors obmundirovyvalis either sostvenny account or through donations, so variations are possible in a wide range.









The warriors of the peasant hundreds had to have uniforms of gray homespun cloth. The warriors of the philistine and merchant hundreds (as well as all the officers) should have had green cloth uniforms. In fact, widely used items of civil clothing in various colors.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 02:32:55 AM by cuprum »

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 07:45:41 PM »
Many thanks.  Great resource.

I understand the hand stiching of numbers straight obto grey shkulder straps as a temporary measure .  I do wonder if units used old system of piping for forage cap or simply stayed with the red piping on a plain grey.  And since there was initially a lack of swords it makes sense that they recruit would be issued one with his company identifier when he reached the unit.

I think here that the translation of Philistine should read Gentleman..

I guess that the peasant infantry might wear anything from their civilian life,  it would be less guady than the Gentleman's. I have seen pictures with striped trousers either blue or red, were these seen frequently? 

I do think the guard depot unit would have been much better dressed.  I have seen a Russian language illustration of pompom and sword knot chart, this shows extra colours over the 1811 lists and matches Lawrence Spring's suggestions for the fourth bn of Perobrzenky (sorry)  regt.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 10:53:49 PM by JohnFoA »

Offline cuprum

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2019, 12:56:29 AM »
I think that the first question we will not find the answer. Here you can rely on your fantasy and it will not be a big mistake anyway.

The translator Google lets me down))) I can’t find the exact term. Gentleman? Not very accurate. Most likely it will be - a citizen or petty bourgeois. All estates below the merchant and above the peasant (minor officials, small traders, artisans, homeowners, etc.)

Some ideas on peasant clothes you can see here:
https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%2018%20%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA&from=tabbar

There were no recruits in the depot of the guard regiments (before the outbreak of the war). Guards units replenished with the best soldiers selected from the entire army. They already had their army uniforms and they only needed to change some details in it.

During the war, the best recruits that were available began to be sent to replenish the Guards. Were they to change clothes? It depends, probably, on whether they arrived first in the regiment depot, or were immediately poured into their units in field conditions. In this case, they are unlikely to have changed clothes.

Offline JohnFoA

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Re: Help with 1812 Rezervnyi (or Rekrutskii) Bn
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2019, 09:27:19 AM »
Okay the term Gentleman as idiom, coincides closely with petty bourgeois.  They could be land owners or professionals - like lawyer,  doctors,  or the sons of wealthy family.  Not of themselves merchants.  In the UK some of this class would be knighted ( so their title starts Sir followed by name,  name, rather than Mister - Mr). Often would have horses,  servants and other trappings of middle to upper classes.

I see the sense of your remarks on Guard depot.  Here 'recruits' are already uniformed so they (probably /possibly) added Guard decorations to their collars/cuffs and found spare shoulder straps,  but the pompoms and sword knots would be what they had to start with unless new items where issued.

So what you are saying about ordinary recruit depot forage cap was 'it was whatever the quartermaster had to hand'. 


Thanks

This is great help.

Have a nice day. 

John