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Author Topic: Separating the designer from the game?  (Read 3949 times)

Offline Gardensnake

  • Bookworm
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Separating the designer from the game?
« on: August 17, 2019, 06:08:25 AM »
Okay,

Without naming any names, how do members here separate the game from the designer? What I mean is, if you find the game designer a despicable person, but you are a fan of either the game they've designed or the genre it's set in, how do you reconcile your feelings? I'm not going to name either the game or the designer, but when answering think of a designer that you think is an awful person with a design you like. Please answer with that in mind or with whatever your thoughts on my question are. If you think I'm nuts, then please let me know, but please give reasons, don't just say I'm nuts. I'm asking because I'm finding myself in this situation and am looking for advice as to what to do. There is a game setting that I find very intriguing and think the rules are well done, but I find the designer a despicable human being and really don't want to support him.

Thanks,

William
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Offline Plynkes

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 07:41:11 AM »
For myself, I don't know enough about any game designers to have strong feelings about them either way. I'm actually struggling to think of the names of any game designers off the top of my head (other than a couple of LAFers who have published their own rules - and yes they are despicable people, but I have to be nice about them because they are also LAF mods ;)).  I've read owners of businesses holding forth on such things as politics on internet fora in the past, and made the mental note "well, I'm never buying anything from him", but it has never happened that someone who sold something I actually wanted to buy has done this, so I have never really been put to the test.

If you feel that strongly, and it sounds like you do, then walk away from the game, you don't want this nagging at you whenever you play. Otherwise, by all means play it. Not sure outside input can be of much use here, you're just going to have to decide how much you care about whatever this person has said or done.



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Offline Charlie_

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 07:56:30 AM »
Hmmm, sounds like the dilemma we can often have with music... When you love an artist's music, but later find out they are truly unpleasant people... Either a bit of an arrogant entitled dick, or much worse.
In that situation I don't think it's morally wrong to continue listening to and enjoying the music, though of course it might put you off it a bit.

Perhaps your situation can be approached the same way? If you already own and play the game, and really enjoy it, don't feel bad for continuing to do so. If you haven't yet purchased it and now don't want to get involved, sure I can understand. But don't let it hold you back if later all your friends are playing it and having a great time, and your refusing to get involved!

Offline Harry Faversham

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2019, 08:34:31 AM »
Okay,

If you think I'm nuts, then please let me know, but please give reasons, don't just say I'm nuts.
Thanks,
William

I think your nuts, here's why. If you like the design/game use it and thoroughly enjoy it. But, be shameless/tireless in your loathing of the turd in 'uman form wot invented it. Sometimes you can think these things through too much.
Simple, innit!!!???

;)
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Offline westwaller

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 770
Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2019, 09:13:10 AM »
I guess it depends why you dislike the designer. If you find them just a bit annoying or they a morally/ethically repugnant or guilty of a criminal offence.
In short if Hitler were alive today I wouldnt support any line of miniatures or games he produced, but if say Chris Martin from Coldplay (who I'm not a fan of or his music particularly) produced the best miniature line in the world suddenly I might have to consider buying from him... Tolerance and understanding of differences of opinion are  a good thing in my humble opinion and we are all human but it's up to you make your own judgements.

Offline Arrigo

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2019, 11:15:01 AM »
Depend why you dislike the designer. There are a couple of people I consider arrogant, overboard, and so enamoured of their designs that cannot see issues with them. I do not buy their games...

There is a chap who I dislike for several reasons, but I have several of his games because there are good.

There is a chap I like a lot... but his games are so-so...  well I do not get his games...

and so on, the list is long.

As long:

1) I am not supporting something I feel fishy (Valley Games KS anyone?)

2) I am not giving money I am afraid it can be used for criminal activity (one Italian distributor is a former terrorist and I do not buy from his group... another one was  even reputed to have sent fascist leaning group to beat competitors... I avoided business... but I had to play against him at a DBM tournament!)

3) I don't dislike the designer because he is a turd designer...

I can live with games of someone I dislike. Ehy I have ever read book of academics who had very unsavory characteristics...


But I am a designer... so maybe I am part in this discussion... ahahahahah  lol (I am also despicable according to some!)
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Offline Gardensnake

  • Bookworm
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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2019, 04:03:50 AM »
You are not the designer in question. I have no reason to consider you despicable.

William

Depend why you dislike the designer. There are a couple of people I consider arrogant, overboard, and so enamoured of their designs that cannot see issues with them. I do not buy their games...

There is a chap who I dislike for several reasons, but I have several of his games because there are good.

There is a chap I like a lot... but his games are so-so...  well I do not get his games...

and so on, the list is long.

As long:

1) I am not supporting something I feel fishy (Valley Games KS anyone?)

2) I am not giving money I am afraid it can be used for criminal activity (one Italian distributor is a former terrorist and I do not buy from his group... another one was  even reputed to have sent fascist leaning group to beat competitors... I avoided business... but I had to play against him at a DBM tournament!)

3) I don't dislike the designer because he is a turd designer...

I can live with games of someone I dislike. Ehy I have ever read book of academics who had very unsavory characteristics...


But I am a designer... so maybe I am part in this discussion... ahahahahah  lol (I am also despicable according to some!)

Offline fred

  • Galactic Brain
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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2019, 08:09:58 AM »
For myself, I don't know enough about any game designers to have strong feelings about them either way.

This.

There are a few designers who write articles for magazines, but these are generally on wargaming topics, so don’t really tell me anything more about them as a person, but can explain their game design thoughts further.

I think if you find the designer so despicable, that when ever you play the game it makes you unhappy then I would say don’t play the game. But if it gives you mild feelings later on reflection, I wouldn’t worry about it, especially if you have already bought the rules and are playing them.  You may choose not to spend more money with them.

Ultimately your moral stance is only affecting you (and possibly the people you game with) so you have to decide if the cost (not playing the game) is worth the benefit (feeling happy with your moral compass).

Offline Arrigo

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2019, 09:53:54 AM »
You are not the designer in question. I have no reason to consider you despicable.

William

I was just trying to lighten the mood. But some people consider me despicable! On the other hand, I am coming to the conclusion that there will be always a wide range of opinions on a given person...

About designers in general, when I started in the hobby, I knew some designers by name like Phil Barker, Mark Herman, Richard Berg, Joe Balkoski and some few others.  But they were just names boxes and booklets. Then I started to buy gaming magazines and read articles, historical and game oriented. Then internet came, I got to interact with some designers, then I started to move around... then facebook... then... well I started to put ideas and quirks behind the names and games, to interact with some of them, and so on. I even studied under a game designer, and ended up sharing office with him! Some are nice persons, some are not, some are even despicable. But with the degree of communication, connections, I find weird that people still has few interaction with designers in this hobby. But with interaction came also some negative baggage, as it is quite normal.


Offline Belligerentparrot

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  • Posts: 480
Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2019, 09:59:53 AM »
Hmmm, sounds like the dilemma we can often have with music...

Yes, this was my reaction too! It might also help to separate some issues:
1) Is this a personal dislike, or a political one? E.g. I think Bono from U2 is a colossal bellend, but I don't think he's politically problematic in the way that e.g. a neo-nazi band like Skrewdriver are. If I personally disliked the game designer, well, I could separate that from the rules. But if it is a political dislike, I would find that a lot harder, especially if....

2) In playing the game are you financially supporting something you think shouldn't be supported? I would say there is a point of morality/justice there: wargaming should be fair/just trade as much as any other of our consumer purchases are (same applies, I'd say, to music).

I recall seeing discussion on Frothers in the long long ago of one historicals rules producer who seemed very keen on far right political movements, no idea who it was as my memory is crap, but there was a general consensus that buying from that company was hardly just/fair trade.

Offline Belligerentparrot

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 10:02:14 AM »
Oh sorry Westwaller, and everybody, I've just duplicated your point without realising you'd posted it.

Offline Arrigo

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2019, 10:36:16 AM »
I think another point could be made not so much about politics,  but personal issues. You can have some serious issue with someone, like he is  obnoxious, self aggrandizing, insulting to a point you cannot really stand him and you can be unwilling to give him money. I think I have pinned a couple of people in that category...  lol is not about supporting a dubious cause, but really spending your hard earned money to allow someone to become even worse.

Of course you can make the case, if we are at this point, probably that person rules/games would not usually inspire positive comment from yourself...

On the other hand, considering there is a an amount of team work on some products, it could be a more nuanced situation.

Very curious about that company on Frothers... no idea on that myself.

Offline YPU

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2019, 11:12:59 AM »
Oh sorry Westwaller, and everybody, I've just duplicated your point without realising you'd posted it.

well, you have the user name for it.


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Offline Condottiere

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2019, 03:23:03 PM »
Depends on whether I know him/her and/or he/she has wronged me on some level - all other reasons are relative. I don't know Frank Chadwick, but based on his half-bothered Condottiere rules, his attitude to an half finished review on TMP, and his sycophants on that thread, I won't be buying any more of his rules, especially those published by Wargames Foundry.   

I don't see any point in going Savonarola on rulebooks after finding out about Dave Waxtel, especially as it's hard enough to find copies in print - if you find that person offensive, put up the stuff on eBay or hawk it/give it away at a convention.


Offline Norm

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Re: Separating the designer from the game?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2019, 03:45:16 PM »
Only you can decide, this is meant to be your hobby, just go with what will give you enjoyable quality game time.