*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 06:44:59 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1686552
  • Total Topics: 118107
  • Online Today: 857
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 12:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???  (Read 3584 times)

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« on: August 19, 2019, 07:54:18 AM »
Hi,

The question is quite a simple one.

I can't think of a ruleset that would best reflect the static Wagenburg tactics vs the highly mobile (if somewhat futile) tactics of Sigismund.

Has anyone got any ideas that might help?

Pic included for the fun of it!


Offline robh

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 3380
  • Spanish offworld colonies
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2019, 10:10:18 AM »
Impetus models the differences between troop types (and accordingly their tactical use) very well.

Probably something that would be spectacular to game,  I have thought about Hussites in 6mm with big diorama style bases. But came to the conclusion that it is probably something you would only ever play once.

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2019, 11:00:48 AM »
Impetus models the differences between troop types (and accordingly their tactical use) very well.

Probably something that would be spectacular to game,  I have thought about Hussites in 6mm with big diorama style bases. But came to the conclusion that it is probably something you would only ever play once.

If I do it I'm going to be doing it in 28mm using largely Kingmaker Hussites (Curteys) with a nice dash of Perry's Wars of the Roses/European Armies into the mix.

I'm also looking at other ideas, all Late Medieval, to get me going as I've effectively been out of the hobby for four or five years and I'm in need of getting my blood up again :)

Kind Regards.

Offline jaytee

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 44
    • The Wargamer
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 12:41:47 PM »
 Any mass battle set will work, you'll just have to make some tweaks, as you would for any non typical, and let's be honest, highly subjective, situation.

Hail Caesar is a great toolkit set. Tweak the stats, give a couple of special rules to reflect the tactical preferances, and you're done.
HISTORICAL WARGAMER BLOG: https://miniaturewar.games

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 01:04:22 PM »
Any mass battle set will work, you'll just have to make some tweaks, as you would for any non typical, and let's be honest, highly subjective, situation.

Hail Caesar is a great toolkit set. Tweak the stats, give a couple of special rules to reflect the tactical preferances, and you're done.

True. I'm just getting back into the hobby after a hiatus of roughly five years so I'm a little rusty on my rules thus the question :)

Forgive me but I'm not sure exactly what you mean by subjective? The Wagon Tabors in combat?

Kind Regards

Offline Charlie_

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 01:20:37 PM »
My understanding of the wagon tabors is they were static fortifications - certain rulesets that treat them as mobile fortress don't quite seem right to me. With that in mind.it could potentially lead to quite static games - the Hussites just sit there behind their wagons, waiting for the enemy to hopelessly throw themselves against them.

Though one way round this would be to use interesting smaller scale scenarios, rather than just big defensive pitched battles. Skirmishes, raids, ambushes etc.... Perhaps a Hussites army is attacked whilst on the march, and hasn't time to set up the tabor.

Then again, it's really no different to the ever popular Hundred Years War, where most games you see feature one static, immobile defensive army just sitting there and shooting.

Hail Caesar would get my vote for most large scale games. But it doesn't scale down well, I feel..

Offline SteveBurt

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1283
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2019, 02:31:25 PM »
Both DBMM and Field of Glory will work, assuming you like either of those rules.

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2019, 03:30:12 PM »
Both DBMM and Field of Glory will work, assuming you like either of those rules.

Thanks for the suggestion but not my bag really.  :)

My understanding of the wagon tabors is they were static fortifications - certain rulesets that treat them as mobile fortress don't quite seem right to me. With that in mind.it could potentially lead to quite static games - the Hussites just sit there behind their wagons, waiting for the enemy to hopelessly throw themselves against them.

But no different from your basic siege game. I'm thinking spectacle at the moment but I do take your point.

There is at least one example of the Hussites hitching up their war wagons and manoeuvring during active battle but it's probably open to debate whether they were trying to leg it or to fight! Off the top of my head I forget the name of the battle.....  o_o

Though one way round this would be to use interesting smaller scale scenarios, rather than just big defensive pitched battles. Skirmishes, raids, ambushes etc.... Perhaps a Hussites army is attacked whilst on the march, and hasn't time to set up the tabor.

Your suggestion of using Hail Caesar might not be a bad one. I'd have to take a look again as it's been a while.

Kind Regards.

Offline Chriscornwell

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 45
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2019, 03:38:10 PM »
If I do it I'm going to be doing it in 28mm using largely Kingmaker Hussites (Curteys) with a nice dash of Perry's Wars of the Roses/European Armies into the mix.

I'm also looking at other ideas, all Late Medieval, to get me going as I've effectively been out of the hobby for four or five years and I'm in need of getting my blood up again :)

Kind Regards.

Sorted these out for a friend who used them (successfully) in a Swordpoint tournament recently. The kingmaker range is excellent
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 03:39:46 PM by Chriscornwell »

Offline Charlie_

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2019, 03:44:28 PM »

But no different from your basic siege game. I'm thinking spectacle at the moment but I do take your point.

Fair enough!

And yes Swordpoint would be well worth a look. From gripping beast.

Offline levied troop

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2019, 03:55:07 PM »
Lion Rampant doesn’t have any rules for war wagons in its original format and as it’s aimed at smaller engagements might not be completely suitable, despite being fun.  But there are some modifications for it here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/duxrampant/war-wagons-t372.html?sid=786e4496ac854374e1570d334d5b7703

The League of Gentlemen Anti Alchemists
(We Turn Gold into Lead)

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2019, 04:28:19 PM »
Sorted these out for a friend who used them (successfully) in a Swordpoint tournament recently. The kingmaker range is excellent

Those are juicy  :-*

Steve Hales of LBMS and Victrix, who commissioned the Kingmaker Hussite range sent me some free miniatures many a moon ago before the range was sold off to Curteys so I'm very familiar with the range. without such a range I doubt I would be drawn to the Hussite Wars.

Lion Rampant doesn’t have any rules for war wagons in its original format and as it’s aimed at smaller engagements might not be completely suitable, despite being fun.  But there are some modifications for it here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/duxrampant/war-wagons-t372.html?sid=786e4496ac854374e1570d334d5b7703

Thanks Levied Troop, I've played many a game of Lion Rampant and I don't feel the rules are suitable for a massed engagement. Have you had any experience of scaling up the rules?

Kind Regards
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 04:32:14 PM by Atheling »

Offline Erik

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 443
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 08:12:47 AM »
In my opinion all rulesets that allow the wagons to move have got it wrong. That being set, its probably the only way to get a fun competitive game out of them. A scenario is the only way to get it right historically and have a fun game. We made a scenario to refight the battle of Skt. Jørgensbjerg from the Danish peasant rebellion of 1441 some years back using Hail Caesar. The objective for the royallist army was the break the wagon laager. 

The wagon laager was represented with the following rules. The warwagons (Kingmaker) are deployed from the start and cannot be moved during the battle. Attackers get no attack/winning bonus against them and they cannot suffer a retreat result from combat. They do abide from both disorder and break results however. Their stamina losses cannot be rallied though so they can be slowly grinded down. Between them were barricades which give +1 to moral to troops defending them and deprives attackers of their attack bonus. The warwagons had clash/sustained 5, short/long 3/2 with crossbows or canon (range 24), moral +4 and 8 stamina. We had three wargaons in a half cirkle on the rebel baseline. They were not brigaded together, so had to be taken out separately.

Hope this can help as inspiration


Cheers

Erik

Offline Erik

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 443
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 08:15:02 AM »
Dr. Zombie did an AAR of the battle but sadly the pictures were lost in Photobucketgate

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=76943.msg941515#msg941515

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 08:55:09 AM »
Dr. Zombie did an AAR of the battle but sadly the pictures were lost in Photobucketgate

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=76943.msg941515#msg941515

Photobucket have ruined the pics, at least from my end :(