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Author Topic: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???  (Read 593 times)

Offline levied troop

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2019, 04:54:19 PM »
Thanks Levied Troop, I've played many a game of Lion Rampant and I don't feel the rules are suitable for a massed engagement. Have you had any experience of scaling up the rules?

Iíve doubled up the army size to 48 points without any rules variations or problems.  But I quite like rules that donít let a battle flow smoothly and build in frustration, and therefore LRís Activation Test works for me. Some may find it too frustrating having most of the army stay still for a move  :)
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Offline Atheling

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2019, 05:34:11 PM »
Iíve doubled up the army size to 48 points without any rules variations or problems.  But I quite like rules that donít let a battle flow smoothly and build in frustration, and therefore LRís Activation Test works for me. Some may find it too frustrating having most of the army stay still for a move  :)

Agreed. However, it's easy enough to work something similar into most (not all) rules if that's what you're looking for :)

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Offline Charlie_

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2019, 09:18:14 PM »
The wagon laager was represented with the following rules. The warwagons (Kingmaker) are deployed from the start and cannot be moved during the battle. Attackers get no attack/winning bonus against them and they cannot suffer a retreat result from combat. They do abide from both disorder and break results however. Their stamina losses cannot be rallied though so they can be slowly grinded down. Between them were barricades which give +1 to moral to troops defending them and deprives attackers of their attack bonus. The warwagons had clash/sustained 5, short/long 3/2 with crossbows or canon (range 24), moral +4 and 8 stamina. We had three wargaons in a half cirkle on the rebel baseline. They were not brigaded together, so had to be taken out separately.

My approach is not to treat them as units, but just pieces of immobile terrain - fortifications for units to fight behind.
The rules I'm currently working on are roughly based on Hail Caesar, and all sorts of heavily defended positions (such as barricades, wagon tabors and dense hedges) give the attackers a -1 to hit penalty, the defenders a bonus of 1 to their combat result, and negates all charging bonuses of cavalry. And provide cover. So lets a smaller unit behind it hold out better against stronger, more numerous attackers.
The unit behind it is assumed to be occupying the wagons themselves, filling the gaps, and with men ready to step up and reinforce those in the front line.
I have a few models with handguns and crossbows in the wagons just to look good.
(Not actually Hussites, but I'd treat them in exactly the same way under my system).




Offline Johnp4000

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2019, 09:20:53 PM »
I think the problem you will always have is that gamers are unlikely to make the same mistakes as the Imperialists especially regrading the composition of the armies. I read several articles on the period which appeared to be heavily biased on Hussite sources however you do have the impression of the Imperialists with a combination of poor morale and command, were almost fighting to the Hussite strengths. That is very difficult to recreate in a game, you would also have to make cavalry choices compulsory to avoid the Imperials fielding just lots of crossbows, maxed artillery with dismounted knight support that worked under WAB!
The Swordpoint rules for Wagons are very similar to WAB , although having rules for movement, the Hussite list implies that the Tabor is in fixed deployment with chains linking the wagons so that the Tabor doesn't move in the game. I had the impression that the wagons were used to blunt the initial assault which would then be countered by waves of halberd armed troops supported by heavy cavalry. Charlie's solution seems as good as any.
I think there were two battles where it was mentioned that the wagons moved Domazlice and Lipany although both of these battles involved opposing Wagenburgs. I am not sure if the wagons were used when they raided neighbouring territory although some of these raids were defeated which might indicate that the wagons did have a weakness if not deployed properly.

Offline fred

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2019, 09:57:03 PM »
Agreed. However, it's easy enough to work something similar into most (not all) rules if that's what you're looking for :)

Kind Regards

If you are wanting big battles with some uncertainty then I think I would start with Hail Caesar, rather than trying to scale up Lion Rampant. Ultimately they both use a 2d6 activation test, but how it is used both for a unit and across the army are quite different. HC also offers rules for brigades which certainly help the game feel more like a battle, rather than an extended skirmish.

Offline AdamPHayes

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2019, 12:10:56 AM »
In Band of Brothers (the Piquet medieval rules) there are rules for war wagons and they seem to work well in the games we have played.



The War wagons can be mobile but are not an effective fighting unit on the move. Once they are deployed they have no exposed flanks and provide excellent cover for the fighting crews. Cavalry have particular nightmares attacking the wagenburg as they have to succeed in a difficulty dice roll to be able to melee the crews of the wagons. Otherwise they just mill about in front of the wagons getting shot at. It is especially pleasing for the Hussite player if the enemy knights lose their discipline and charge the wagons impetuously!

Offline Atheling

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2019, 09:10:57 AM »
I think the problem you will always have is that gamers are unlikely to make the same mistakes as the Imperialists especially regrading the composition of the armies. I read several articles on the period which appeared to be heavily biased on Hussite sources however you do have the impression of the Imperialists with a combination of poor morale and command, were almost fighting to the Hussite strengths. That is very difficult to recreate in a game, you would also have to make cavalry choices compulsory to avoid the Imperials fielding just lots of crossbows, maxed artillery with dismounted knight support that worked under WAB!

Yeah, I agree re: the Imerialists fighting to the Hussite strengths, though obviously, to start with it was all new to them and the sheer moral of being a member of the Chivalric classes played against them psychologically vis a vis the Nobility vs Peasant mentality played against them in a big way.

The Swordpoint rules for Wagons are very similar to WAB

which kind of leads me onto my next question......

With Swordpoint do units have the same tendency to end up fleeing in different directions and at all corners of the battlefield as they did in WAB? Obviously this is something I want to avoid at all costs.

Kind REgards

Offline fred

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2019, 06:48:53 PM »
I wonder if the Furiso rules might work for this type of battle - while they are aimed 100 or so years later, they have key parts that might help model the differences between the armies. With rules to reflect the impetuous nature of knights, and to reflect different troop qualities, and there easy of command (or not). These are probably the more important things to model than just the combat stats (or shooting stats) which is where WAB starts.

Offline Johnp4000

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2019, 07:45:39 AM »



Hi Atheling,

I am not an expert with Swordpoint, but the game gives bonus'es if units maintain line of battle, so at least at the beginning you tend to keep your units inline, supporting each other.My games have involved mainly Infantry and because of the battle line, fleeing units tend to go directly back however depending on the angle of attack there is the possibility that you could have the wiz bang effect.
Do you remember the old WAB rule 'arrogant pride' which force knights to charge, I think this would definitively cover the imperialists of this era.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 07:47:43 AM by Johnp4000 »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Rules that Best Reflect the Tactics of the Hussite Wars???
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2019, 08:26:39 AM »
there is the possibility that you could have the wiz bang effect.

Oh..... that's something I want to avoid like the plague! That's the one thing that really drove me crazy with WAB :(

Do you remember the old WAB rule 'arrogant pride' which force knights to charge, I think this would definitively cover the imperialists of this era.

Yeah, this will be factored in.

Kind Regards