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Author Topic: Grumpy Gnome Sci-fi (page 6 Core Space, Mars Attacks, Stargrave, 5 Parsecs)  (Read 11141 times)

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Nothing quite like being late to the party, and the internet does not forget!

Recently I was bitten by the Dropfleet Commander bug thanks to winning a great deal on an eBay auction. So of course I started researching the game with the fervor of the newly converted...

Much to my dismay it looks like the game was quite the fad... a couple of years ago! Not so much now. I can see that I would have been a fully committed kickstarter backer, so what do you do when you see that your new passion is an old flame of several others, discarded and thrown aside?

Or am I wrong? Are there many of you Dropfleet Commanders still lurking around? Hoping that TT Combat can reinvigorate the game with a 2.0 reboot like they seem to have done for Dropzone Commander with Battle for Earth?

Have any of you spoken with TT Combat Staff about the future of Dropfleet?

What do you think of Dropfleet compared to Full Thrust and Firestorm Armada?

What do you think of the fan made errata? I am still just learning the official rules so I am not sure what to think of such an extensive fan project.

I mentioned a bit of this on my blog and talked about my ideas for color schemes for my UCM fleet.

https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/2019/08/18/busy-day/

What do your fleets look like? Indulge an over enthusiastic fanboy....
« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 08:15:59 PM by Grumpy Gnome »
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Offline Daeothar

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2019, 09:21:16 AM »
Even though I did not back the KS, I was an early convert, having played Dropzone Commander quite a lot, and owning two armies for that (Scourge and resistance).

The game is great, but due to many other projects, it got relegated to shelf duty until last year, when a buddy, who did pledge in the KS, got the urge to paint up his fleets. So myself and another friend unearthed our boxes too and set to painting and playing the game. I went with Scourge, and the others went for UCM and PHR respectively.

So we basically got into it only last year, and we've played it quite a few times since then. It even went so far that we started expanding our fleets, and I now have at least one set of every released extra unit, bar one. And yes; this includes the Dreadnought :D

Both the Commander games were on the rise to become quite big, even though there was some fallout when the Kickstarter failed to be fulfilled when products were already out in retail. Much booing and hissing on the interwebs, but really, there was no foul play involved.

A short time later, Hawk Wargames was absorbed by TT Combat. The main reason was that the lead designer/owner/sculptor got burned out on the logistics, PR and sales side of things, and the larger company could step into those fields, while he could concentrate on what he likes (and does!) best; sculpting and game designing.

So there was a period in which the original stocks of Hawk Wargames products were discounted and sold off, before TT Combat labeled products were released. So there was quite some time where very little DZC and DFC products were available. It also meant that no new releases were forthcoming for more than a year. And this was a real problem for the popularity of the game, as many people assumed that with the demise of Hawk, the games were dead too.

But TT Combat is now releasing new products for the game again, a new rulesbook is coming soon, and support is growing again.

It never was a huge game to begin with; it had still been creating its own niche when the whole setback occurred, but with the weight of TT Combat behind it, with a bit of patience, I'm certain it will crawl out of looming obscurity and grow to prominence... :)
Miniatures you say? Well I too, like to live dangerously...
Find a Way, or make one!

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2019, 10:23:03 AM »
That is great to hear. I have been absorbing as much YouTube videos and internet blogs as I can find. I see the Hawk forum has appeared to die off and a fan run forum has stepped in. TT Combat does not seem to manage a forum?

I broke one of my usual rules of only buying used and on sale to get a couple of things from TT Combat, including Battle for Earth. I love the fluff!

Thanks to eBay I picked up some inexpensive Dropzone stuff but 10mm is not my favorite scale and to be honest storage space for terrain is limited, although I would ,love to do some post apoc vegetation overgrown city ruins.

Whilst reluctant at first my wife has come around to Dropfleet, which was good of her since we originally agreed to just one genre to focus on... medieval fantasy. So now it looks like the plan is for her to have small fleets of each of the other nations whilst I build my dream UCM Grand Fleet. She was not a huge fan of the fluff so I thought I would have to rewrite bits to suit her but she has come around on that to a certain degree.

I can see the ship bases are fiddly. So far I have found two aftermarket base accessories help. I am currently favoring the ones from Blotz but I would like to hear if anyone has other suggestions.

Offline Daeothar

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 11:43:02 AM »
Yes; the bases are a bit of a thing... ::)

The status and height dial is OK and perfectly workable, but the hull-point pegs are a right nightmare. Especially during large engagements with loads of ships in close proximity to each other.

The times ships got bumped or toppled during the repositioning of the peg on a ship under fire are beyond number. It has come to the point where both of my regular opponents basically refused to use the pegs and resorted to dice during play. Especially since it regularly happens that pegs spontaneously popped out of their holes. Seriously; I've seen them do it!

Also, the dang things always seem to disappear, and I always come home a few pegs short.

I've been thinking about putting a thin metal sheet on the bottom of the dials, and using small magnets to keep the tracker/peg in place on the base. I mean; we have the technology...

The fluff is nothing spectacular, but it is well thought out. The only thing (kind of) bugging me is the addition of the Shaltari. They are an interesting faction, no doubt, and they play very differently from the others, but they somehow feel shoehorned in there.

The other factions all have a crucial role to play in the ongoing narrative; the UCM is us; exiled humankind, under attack by the relentless Scourge. The PHR are humans that followed a strange prophetic artifact, abandoning Earth after being warned about the arrival of the Scourge, and now they have returned, but not fully human anymore, their goals and purpose unknown. The Resistance are those humans that were not able to flee before the onslaught, were never captured by the Scourge and fight a guerrilla war on the occupied worlds.

All of those are connected and influence the others as they work towards their goals.

And then there's the Shaltari, who just happened to run into humanity, wage war on everyone, including themselves, and add absolutely nothing to the overall story arc. As if the designer had this cool game play idea with gates and transporters, but could not fit it into his design of the other races. So they were created just so the mechanism could be added to game play. they bring diversity in play, but bring nothing decisive to the table when it comes to fluff. They could be written out, and the overall arc would not be influenced at all...

And I am planning my terrain in such a way that is is usable for both 10mm and 15mm, so I can play several games with one set of terrain. And since it's all urban terrain, it could work for 6mm too, in a pinch (well for Epic/40K anyway; architecture is supposed to be ridiculously oversized and monumental anyway ;) ).

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 12:01:13 PM »
One of the auctions I won had UCM ships magnetized... not just the options but replacing the little clear widget on the stem. I much prefer that so ordered a bunch of magnets to do the other ships, useful since several are bits box salvage type ships without complete bases.

The thing I like about the blotz Bases is no dice for damage tracking. And not that expensive, unlike laser forge on Etsy.

https://blotz.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=24_124_185&products_id=1108

One of the rules that has jumped out at me as possibly needing a rethink is the fighters in the launch assets. I am not really seeing much point in mixed launch assets compared to just sending bombers. Am I missing something?

I agree on the Shaltari seeming to be the weak link in the narrative. My wife would rather have them be the lizardmen the Scourge were using as hosts during the initial invasion. I have toyed with the idea of using Stargrunt rules for a 28mm Dropverse game with various proxy minis.

Offline Daeothar

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 12:46:21 PM »
Plenty of solutions for the bases, yes. It was a good idea in theory, but in practice, it has proven just way too fiddly.

And fighters can be utterly crucial in keeping your ships alive. Yes, offensively, bombers are king, but keeping fighters near your own ships reduces the effect of each wave of bombers. It's a base/token for base/token trade.

So if you are on the receiving end of 3 bomber bases/tokens, and you have 2 fighter bases/tokens with your ship, only one bomber base/token gets to roll for effect, as the other two are removed (together with your fighters). And especially when your capital ship has already suffered some damage, reducing the bomber wave is key. Because once damage is dealt, the effects increase almost exponentially, and it it rare that a cruiser can weather more than one barrage and a fighter wave.

The game is absolutely brutal in that respect.

But fighters really become interesting in higher level games, when you can field more than a single carrier. because with just 3 or 4 launch tokens, you're better off concentrating your assets, while when your launch capacity increases to 10 or 20, a careful division is key (because the other guy probably has the same capabilities!).

Your wife's explanation sounds perfectly reasonable, and would actually involve the Shaltari a lot more into the overall narrative. I like it! :)

And I've been holding on for the release of Drop Squad Commander for years now. It's only logical, right? Then you get to play truly interesting campaigns, fighting your way to the surface of a planet in DFC, dropping your troops and securing a beach head in DZC and then going in to secure an objective in DSC... 8)

Offline Hobby Services

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2019, 05:01:54 PM »
Quote
One of the rules that has jumped out at me as possibly needing a rethink is the fighters in the launch assets. I am not really seeing much point in mixed launch assets compared to just sending bombers. Am I missing something?

Have you played against a fleet that's running heavy on close action ships yet?  Scourge generally does it best, but UCM and Shaltari can skew into it effectively as well.  Both UCM and Scourge CAW forces will leave you scraping for every bit of PD cover you can get, which is a good argument for fighters escorting key units.  You can also get mileage out of launching fighters at a target being pursued by your own bombers from the previous turn if the enemy launches fighters to cover the target.  Clearing the escort will get more bomb hits through, and it's often more useful than launching another wave of bombers at long ranges.

And fighters can be utterly crucial in keeping your ships alive. Yes, offensively, bombers are king, but keeping fighters near your own ships reduces the effect of each wave of bombers. It's a base/token for base/token trade.

So if you are on the receiving end of 3 bomber bases/tokens, and you have 2 fighter bases/tokens with your ship, only one bomber base/token gets to roll for effect, as the other two are removed (together with your fighters).

Unless there's been errata to change the core rules, that's not how that works.  Fighters can remove other escorting fighters one for one, but when using them against bombers they provide extra point defense against the damage inflicted by the bomber attacks.  Generally speaking one fighter counter won't provide enough PD dice to stop a single bomber's attack cold, although you can get lucky and when you factor in the ship's native PD the fighter's contribution is more likely to save a ship from damage.

Quote
And then there's the Shaltari, who just happened to run into humanity, wage war on everyone, including themselves, and add absolutely nothing to the overall story arc. As if the designer had this cool game play idea with gates and transporters, but could not fit it into his design of the other races. So they were created just so the mechanism could be added to game play. they bring diversity in play, but bring nothing decisive to the table when it comes to fluff. They could be written out, and the overall arc would not be influenced at all...

They didn't "just happen" to run into humanity, and they're the real "bad guys" behind the Scourge invasion.  They deliberately led Scourge probes to the human homeworlds after concluding that both races were a long-term threat to their species as a whole due to their reproductive rates and aggressive expansionism.  The plan was probably for both sides to cripple each other and wipe the winner out afterward, or turn the survivors into a client race like the Pulgari.  Whatever entity is behind the White Sphere screwed things up by saving a bunch of humans to form the PHR and (maybe unintentionally) weakening the remaining human fleet so much they had to flee to the future UCM worlds rather than fight.  This lead to even more fracturing of the Shaltari clans as some of them are helping the UCM or the Scourge to stretch the renewed conflict out, others are making a power play within their own culture and the Scourge-human war be damned, and at least a few are freaking out about the Sphere and PHR, who seem to have come out of nowhere and may be a bigger threat than the UCM, Resistance, and Scourge combined.

They're not just a wild card or excuse for game mechanics, and they sure aren't a minor part of the story that could just be dropped without impact.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 05:24:47 PM by Hobby Services »

Offline Hobby Services

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2019, 05:39:21 PM »
Having said all that - I gave up on the game around the time Hawk sold itself.  Found the rules too limited, and while the focus on planetary invasion was cute for a while the lack of any other kinds of scenarios quickly left me cold.  No convoy raid/defense games, no deep space interception fleet actions, no asymmetrical blockade runs, and the fact that not one invasion scenario actually has  a defense in place is daft.  The Scourge were on the cradle Worlds for over a century but they have to deploy their troops from orbit just like everyone else?  No troops in place on the ground?  No defenses built despite an active resistance and ongoing hunting ops to collect free humans for hosts?  Not even skeleton crews manning the armed orbital platforms?  Nope, everything's a symmetrical game.  Just not impressed with 1st edition at all.  Maybe TTC will fix some of that, we'll see eventually.

There's absolutely no players locally any more, and its US retail presence was badly hurt by the TTC takeover dead period.  Too many stores suddenly found stock impossible to order, and an awful lot of gamers moved on before that was fixed.  Again, that may change over time, but I suspect it's going to be an uphill battle.

OTOH, the minis are gorgeous, and they work as well for more versatile games as they do for DzC.  I haven't bothered to post most of my (long since sold) stock fleet images, but there's a fair amount of Dropfleet content on my blog, including (I would guess) the largest gallery of space station builds in the universe.  https://brokenstarsburningships.blogspot.com/search/label/Dropfleet%20Commander

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2019, 06:57:13 PM »
I have enjoyed your station designs and custom ships.

Fair point on the fighter cover, I had not thought of that angle.

And, another fair point on the Shaltari when you put it like that. My wife just rolls her eyes at the space porcupine concept though.

My thinking on the scenarios was to develop our own. I watched a video where some guys created their own scenario of ships attacking a larger fleet in space dock facilities. They created their own mechanic on when the ships could deploy from repairs. My thinking is to pinch scenarios from other games when the planetary invasion ones grow stale.

I would also like to develop more extensive damage tables. I get that the game is streamlined for tournaments but my wife and I like more narrative role playing aspects.

And I worry that ships are going to pop too quickly.

That said, I do like the scan plus signature ranging system. 

Offline Hobby Services

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2019, 11:06:29 PM »
My thinking on the scenarios was to develop our own. I watched a video where some guys created their own scenario of ships attacking a larger fleet in space dock facilities. They created their own mechanic on when the ships could deploy from repairs. My thinking is to pinch scenarios from other games when the planetary invasion ones grow stale.

I made a couple of abortive efforts at that myself, but never finished them.  BFG would seem like the obvious place to steal scenarios from, or A Call To Arms, both of which have some mechanical similarities.  The point values need to be reconsidered for bombardment ships and troop carriers when not playing invasion games - they're grossly overcosted without that being a main objective.

Quote
I would also like to develop more extensive damage tables. I get that the game is streamlined for tournaments but my wife and I like more narrative role playing aspects.

And I worry that ships are going to pop too quickly.

Stuff does die alarmingly fast, especially with a bad catastrophic damage roll or two triggering chain reactions.  Crits are too frequent for my tastes as well - bypassing armor so often makes it feel kind of pointless.

Quote
That said, I do like the scan plus signature ranging system.
 

It's probably one of the best elements of the game, yes.  Ironically, I also like how dangerous ship explosions are since it makes bunching up a real risk and discourages traffic jams.  But big booms happen too quickly and chain reactions (especially among frigates) are too over the top.  Lowering the potential damage might fix that.

Quote
My wife just rolls her eyes at the space porcupine concept though.

They probably didn't intend people to see them that way, but you don't get to pick your nickname even when you're hyperadvanced alien warriors.  Their ships are by far my least liked designs in the game, and oh gods, are they a pain to paint well.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 11:11:13 PM by Hobby Services »

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2019, 05:27:57 AM »
Right now my only opponent is my wife, so points balance takes a back seat to narrative. What miniatures I have finished and our non-Standard table size will dictate more than streamlined tournament balance.

I do hope TT Combat have some plans for the future in regards to the game though. I read on one of the online discussions about an unknown threat that the Scourge have been dealing with. Makes me wonder if there is another faction on the horizon.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 05:29:36 AM by Rick W. »

Offline Daeothar

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2019, 07:30:11 AM »
Unless there's been errata to change the core rules, that's not how that works.  Fighters can remove other escorting fighters one for one, but when using them against bombers they provide extra point defense against the damage inflicted by the bomber attacks.  Generally speaking one fighter counter won't provide enough PD dice to stop a single bomber's attack cold, although you can get lucky and when you factor in the ship's native PD the fighter's contribution is more likely to save a ship from damage.

You are right of course. The last game I played was before the summer and things get hazy fast, especially since I'm not a 'rules guy' myself ::) Still; fighters absolutely have their purpose.

They didn't "just happen" to run into humanity, and they're the real "bad guys" behind the Scourge invasion.  They deliberately led Scourge probes to the human home worlds after concluding that both races were a long-term threat to their species as a whole due to their reproductive rates and aggressive expansionism.

I have all the books (both DZC and DFC), and read them front to back, but I must have missed this. In which book is this mentioned? This does make them even more detestable... ;)


The last game we played, was a three way battle, with Scourge and UCM fleets both arriving in system to do the same thing; destroy a PHR Dreadnought before it leaves dock. We had some house rules to accommodate the lack of ground targets, and none of our fleets were optimized for pure space battles, but we made it work, and it was pretty fun.

The PHR forces (same points as UCM and Scourge combined) started in the middle of one side, while the other two started out in the opposite corners. The dreadnought was in the middle, and the player could roll for its activation each turn (getting more probable each turn; think deep striking mechanic in 40K) while we rushed to do damage to it as soon as possible. He had a small patrol force with it, and the rest of his fleet came up behind it.

The scenario and house rules could do with some more tweaking to balance things out a bit more, but the overall idea was solid. And when you build your fleet, it can be tweaked to be effective in this situation too. Just make sure you don't select bombardment ships and anything with heavy launch assets and you're good.

And like I said; the game is absolutely brutal. I went into my first game, thinking of attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion ;) , but what we got was; ship gets hit, gets taken down to half its hull points and receives some debilitating effects, gets hit again, blows up spectacularly, damaging several others ships, which then also explode, cascading damage through both fleets, to the point where we could fit in two games with our starter fleets in the first evening... ::)

I think a bit of a rework of the damage system would not be a bad thing. I mean; once you get used to it, you can play and plan around it, obviously, but none of us were prepared for the slaughter fest this game is at first. Some less brutal damage effects could go a long way to ensure some more tactical play.

As it is, especially with small fleets, once your critical assets get vaped, you're basically out of the game. I played a game where I was able to destroy my opponent's only ship capable of dropping troops, so that was that... Only in larger games do you get enough redundancy to be able to react to setbacks to your plans. And even then you're always fighting a steep uphill battle. Less brutal combat could negate all that a bit.

I mean; what's the use of having 16 hull points when you loose them all in one or two rounds of combat? For some reason I've got frigates that usually outlive the large capitals even though they're just 4 hull points (of course those capitals are priority targets, but still). At the moment, when a ship gets fired upon, no matter its class, it will get destroyed in two turns max, unless something statistically improbable happens to the attacker's dice...


I understand that Resistance is now being dragged into DFC as well, even though they were initially just a ground force. So that's at least one more faction for the game, and I really like their aesthetics. The Art Deco/ Streamline look they have going is just too cool to ignore, so here's to hoping they extend that look to the ships as well :)

Right now though, I'm in full agreement with you guys in that the game needs a tweak to the damage system and some more variation in scenarios/type of games more than it needs another faction. But for some reason I have faith in TTC, and the game(s) might just move into the right direction (although DZC is fine the way it is now IMHO).

Still hoping for that Drop Squad Commander reveal though... :D

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 09:50:33 AM »
Now that is the kind of interesting house rules scenario I was thinking of. Sounds fun!

The modular design concept of the Resistance ships should appeal marketing-wise, given the popularity of the modular space station models outside just Dropfleet players. And good business returns normally means increased continuing investment/development.

28-32mm skirmish is all the rage right now, so I would not be surprised to see Dropsquad Commander if TT Combat did not already have so many projects on.

I am curious how their upcoming Stellaris project might overlap DFC.

https://community.ttcombat.com/2019/08/16/painted-ether-drake/

Offline JamesValentine

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 10:24:16 AM »
it has definitely stagnated I find.

you'll find very little discussion about it on forums and Facebook and still very few people know of its existence. I've only ever seen 1 shop stock a limited amount of it and seen a fair share of complaints on quality since TTCombat took over.

it doesn't help that Hawk Wargames didn't do much to promote the game and TTCombat does close to absolutely nothing at all to promote it and expects it to grow still.

its something a friend tried and still tries to get me into. but I see it now as a complete waste.

Offline Hobby Services

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Re: Late to the party.... Dropfleet Commander
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 07:33:38 PM »
it has definitely stagnated I find.

you'll find very little discussion about it on forums and Facebook and still very few people know of its existence. I've only ever seen 1 shop stock a limited amount of it and seen a fair share of complaints on quality since TTCombat took over.

it doesn't help that Hawk Wargames didn't do much to promote the game and TTCombat does close to absolutely nothing at all to promote it and expects it to grow still.

Agreed, although worth mentioning that the quality complaints are all resin-related, the plastics are still l fine AFAIK.  Hard to screw up injection-molded plastics.  Quit the facebook group a while ago, although it was still middling active about a year back.

TTC is definitely stretching themselves too thin, and it shows.

Quote
I have all the books (both DZC and DFC), and read them front to back, but I must have missed this. In which book is this mentioned? This does make them even more detestable... ;)

Haven't even seen Battle For Earth, but Dropfleet Commander core book, page 189, Shaltari section, under Arcitects of Fate is where most of it comes from.  In short, the only time the Scourge have ever deigned to talk to humans as far as the UCM knows, it was to tell us that the Shaltari had led their seedships to the Cradle Worlds after helping us find and settle them in a deliberate effort to get both races to wipe each other out.

Now, they are Scourge and might be lying, but what do they gain from it?   We're not going to stop the Reconquest to go beat on Shaltari, who can basically avoid us at will.  We're not going to distrust the Shaltari any more than we already do, they're notoriously unreliable and flaky.  Giving us another race to have  a grudge about won't save the Scourge any trouble, although they may not be good enough at reading human psychology to realize that.

They might also be misinterpreting things, but the way the disparate tribes are meddling they sure seem to be extending the war and increasing casualties rather than helping anyone win.  And the Scourge are in a good position to know if their seedships were meddled with, even by Shaltrai tech.

It would be really interesting to know if the PHR and the resistance fleets got a similar message from the Scourge, and how they're reacting to it if they did.  Also be really interesting to know what the PHR thinks of the Shaltari agenda, and whether the White Sphere (arguably technologically superior to the Shaltari in many ways, even if the PHR as a whole isn't) has the porcupines as worried as they probably ought to be.

 

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